Different types of Peshkabz'

B.I · 21st July 2005, 12:25 PM

hi jim,
eloquent as ever :-)
artzi did offer a great summary but as the issue keeps cropping up, i thought it would be good to uncover all summaries/glossaries in order to reach a general consensus. holstein/stone/hobson are a good start.

irving from the late 19thC -

pesh qabz - the word is from pesh, front, qabz, grip.
it was a pointed one-edged dagger, having generally a thick straight back to the blade, and a straight handle without a guard; though at times the blade was curved, or even double-curved. the peshqabz is not in the ain i, 110-112, so i presume that it was included under one of the other kinds of dagger, perhaps under kard, a knife, No.34 and fig 28. in egerton i find 23 examples. of these there are 7 straight, 4 curved and 2 double-curved blades; the shape of the rest is not stated.

kard - this was like a butchers knife and kept in a sheath. it was mpore especially the weapon of the afghan. (he cites egrton again, pg 144).
this was the sort of weapon with which, on the 8th oct 1720, mir haidar beg, dughlat, assasinated sayyad husain, mir bakhshi, in the emperors camp between fathpur sikri and amber (jaipur). the author of the jauhar-i-samsam calls the weapon then used a chaqchaqi-i-wilayati. this word is realted to a knife (steinglass, from turkish).

not a great help but its good 19thC account, taken from source and from a studied academic view (irving could read both hindi and persian and had access to much material from both languages, as well as english at the height of orientalism and the asiatic society.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2005, 01:55 AM

Hi Brian,
Thank you so much for the kind comment!!
The notes from Irving are as you have said, most useful as they are contemporary accounts observed by a scholar well versed in these languages and with access to many examples that were often well provenanced.
I agree that it would be a good idea to put together as much of this period material as possible to discover how much of the information corroborates.

While it seems the kard has existed at least in the early 17th century, probably even earlier as it is such a primary form of edged weapon, I am wondering about how early the mail piercing karud and subsequently the pesh kabz may have developed (are there any miniature or other iconographic references that might be chronologically helpful?).I think it would be interesting to discover more on the chain mail and armour worn in these regions that brought the demand for more specialized armour piercing weapons. It is known that Tatar and Russian edged weapons featured such armor piercing blades in the 17th century, possibly these might have had influence?

It would seem that so far we all have a pretty good idea of basic nomenclature and differences of this group of edged weapons and to learn more on thier development may also help us better identify them.

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 22nd July 2005, 02:19 AM

hi jim,
i have always had the (bad) habit of reading the bibliography first, before opening the first page of a new book. maybe i like to see how learned the author is before tackling what he has to say.
or maybe i just cant handle the suspence and like reading the last pages first (only to find it was the butler that did it again!)

irvings bibliographys are without a doubt the most impressive. its a strange day and age we live in when we take so much for granted (the power of google). learning then needed to be so much more thorough. in the book i mentioned, he lists 114 books he has refered to, 56 of which are persian manuscripts.
i'm not knocking tirris book, but his bibliography reflected the academic merit of his text.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd July 2005, 04:22 PM

‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ is down from the book shelf, so why not see what Elgood says about a Peshkabz?

Peshkabz (Persian) Persian dagger also used in northern India with a single-edge tapering blade, sometimes with a recurves. The hilt is often walrus ivory or semi-precious stone. There is no guard. The word appears in Lord Clive’s Accounts. See Hobson-Jobson. Egerton. Moser etc. Allan argues that in a Persian context a peshkabz has a double curved blade. (Allan, James W.: Persian Metal Technology 700-1300 AD. London, 1979.

Brian, I like what you write, that you start reading the bibliography first - to be warned beforehand as you say.

Jim, your many years of collecting books and writing note shows in yout mails

.

Jens

22nd July 2005, 04:22 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’ is down from the book shelf, so why not see what Elgood says about a Peshkabz? Peshkabz (Persian) Persian dagger also used in northern India with a single-edge tapering blade, sometimes with a recurves. The hilt is often walrus ivory or semi-precious stone. There is no guard. The word appears in Lord Clive’s Accounts. See Hobson-Jobson. Egerton. Moser etc. Allan argues that in a Persian context a peshkabz has a double curved blade. (Allan, James W.: Persian Metal Technology 700-1300 AD. London, 1979. Brian, I like what you write, that you start reading the bibliography first - to be warned beforehand as you say. Jim, your many years of collecting books and writing note shows in yout mails. Jens

21st July 2005, 12:25 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, eloquent as ever :-) artzi did offer a great summary but as the issue keeps cropping up, i thought it would be good to uncover all summaries/glossaries in order to reach a general consensus. holstein/stone/hobson are a good start. irving from the late 19thC - pesh qabz - the word is from pesh, front, qabz, grip. it was a pointed one-edged dagger, having generally a thick straight back to the blade, and a straight handle without a guard; though at times the blade was curved, or even double-curved. the peshqabz is not in the ain i, 110-112, so i presume that it was included under one of the other kinds of dagger, perhaps under kard, a knife, No.34 and fig 28. in egerton i find 23 examples. of these there are 7 straight, 4 curved and 2 double-curved blades; the shape of the rest is not stated. kard - this was like a butchers knife and kept in a sheath. it was mpore especially the weapon of the afghan. (he cites egrton again, pg 144). this was the sort of weapon with which, on the 8th oct 1720, mir haidar beg, dughlat, assasinated sayyad husain, mir bakhshi, in the emperors camp between fathpur sikri and amber (jaipur). the author of the jauhar-i-samsam calls the weapon then used a chaqchaqi-i-wilayati. this word is realted to a knife (steinglass, from turkish). not a great help but its good 19thC account, taken from source and from a studied academic view (irving could read both hindi and persian and had access to much material from both languages, as well as english at the height of orientalism and the asiatic society.

22nd July 2005, 01:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Brian, Thank you so much for the kind comment!! The notes from Irving are as you have said, most useful as they are contemporary accounts observed by a scholar well versed in these languages and with access to many examples that were often well provenanced. I agree that it would be a good idea to put together as much of this period material as possible to discover how much of the information corroborates. While it seems the kard has existed at least in the early 17th century, probably even earlier as it is such a primary form of edged weapon, I am wondering about how early the mail piercing karud and subsequently the pesh kabz may have developed (are there any miniature or other iconographic references that might be chronologically helpful?).I think it would be interesting to discover more on the chain mail and armour worn in these regions that brought the demand for more specialized armour piercing weapons. It is known that Tatar and Russian edged weapons featured such armor piercing blades in the 17th century, possibly these might have had influence? It would seem that so far we all have a pretty good idea of basic nomenclature and differences of this group of edged weapons and to learn more on thier development may also help us better identify them. All the best, Jim

22nd July 2005, 02:19 AM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i have always had the (bad) habit of reading the bibliography first, before opening the first page of a new book. maybe i like to see how learned the author is before tackling what he has to say. or maybe i just cant handle the suspence and like reading the last pages first (only to find it was the butler that did it again!) irvings bibliographys are without a doubt the most impressive. its a strange day and age we live in when we take so much for granted (the power of google). learning then needed to be so much more thorough. in the book i mentioned, he lists 114 books he has refered to, 56 of which are persian manuscripts. i'm not knocking tirris book, but his bibliography reflected the academic merit of his text.