Sawfish sword

B.I · 21st July 2005, 09:39 AM

hi tim,
have you been to the pitt rivers in oxford. i must admit i get caught up in one section everytime i go, but there is a wealth of oceanic and african items. i think clues may be found there as the collection was formed around 1900 and he kept relatively good records. there is also a large collection of early photos, all of an ethnic direction.
a nagging thought reminds me it may be shut for a while but worth pursuing.

fearn · 21st July 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the pics! You're quite right about the lack of "primitiveness" in the Torres Islands. What I was trying to get at (and failing) is that the shape of the grip on your sawfish bill (with a bulging handle and a pommel) doesn't look Oceanic. While there is one club (at the bottom) that has a pommel, the particular handle shape on the sawfish blade looks western to me. My personal guess is that someone made a sword out of a sawfish bill basically for fun. It could easily have come from the Torres Strait, and it could just as easily have been made by an Aussie as a native.

Basically, to me it's a neat blade, whatever its origin. Absent some more information on decoration, tool marks, or the species of sawfish, all I can say is that it's fairly old. I don't think we've got enough information to assign an origin to it at the moment.

Fearn

Tim Simmons · 21st July 2005, 01:26 PM

Hi Fearn, that Aussie must have been very busy, I bought this from a collection of weapons. Of this type of weapon this example was the best of three the others having damage, one with the handle broken off the other too may damaged teeth. I shall post picture of Papuan 'sword clubs' later this evening. They would seem to suggest what you consider as a european grip is some what universal in its pracitcality. Tim

fearn · 21st July 2005, 01:52 PM

Hi Tim,

What you suggest is entirely possible. While I don't recommend damaging collections, you might want to find out how easy it is to carve a sawfish bill. It's not steel, and it might be possible to make carve such a sword in an afternoon, given decent tools. That's why tool marks would be useful.

So far as ID'ing this sawfish species, it turns out that sawfish taxonomy is kind of messed up. It looks like your specimen is not a bigtooth or smalltooth sawfish (see this link to a Florida museum). If true, this means that your sawfish wasn't caught in the Atlantic. There's a grad student at Iowa State who is currently reworking sawfish taxonomy. He might be able to give you some pointers on how to identify the sawfish that donated its bill here.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the other pieces.

Fearn

Tim Simmons · 21st July 2005, 02:20 PM

Hi Fearn, I should be hard at work but something is disstrating me

The possiblity of an Atlantic African origin is possible, the collection was largely 19th cent west African and Congo pieces with a few pieces from Indonesia and a few Papuan shields. I have been looking very closely at the carving of the handle with a loop and do not forget carving is my work. I can see no signs that this is one of an afternoons production. There are no saw or file marks which to me suggest it was cut with small hand tools the few marks do not give a good clue as to what type of tool was used. The handle has been painted with a black substance rather like tar. I would have thought it rather hard work in a dug out, to catch enougth big ones to carve a pile of these. I would be quite pleased to find out if these are from the coastal areas of say Gabon or the Congo. Clubs later work is breathing down my neck. Tim

fearn · 21st July 2005, 02:44 PM

Hi Tim,

That certainly helps. I'm glad you can provide an expert opinion on the tools that made that sawfish sword.

Given that my understanding of sawfish biology comes almost entirely from the web, I believe that the Bigtooth and Smalltooth sawfishes are the only species in the tropical Atlantic, both in the Carribean, the South American coast, and the African coast (they're coastal animals apparently).

Basically, your sword looks like it has too many teeth to be a smalltooth sawfish. That means that it didn't come from the Carribean or from west Africa.

There are 3-6 other sawfish in the world, presumably in the Indian and Pacific oceans. If the saw didn't come from one of the Atlantic species, it came from one of the Indopacific ones.

Personally, I'd recommend emailing that grad student. Speaking as a former biology grad student, most of us are quite happy when someone takes an interest in our particular branch of esoteric knowledge. He might be able to tell you what species of sawfish that came from, and where that species lives.

Fearn

Rick · 21st July 2005, 03:09 PM

Always trying to help via Google .

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/...wfishCITES.htm

21st July 2005, 09:39 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi tim, have you been to the pitt rivers in oxford. i must admit i get caught up in one section everytime i go, but there is a wealth of oceanic and african items. i think clues may be found there as the collection was formed around 1900 and he kept relatively good records. there is also a large collection of early photos, all of an ethnic direction. a nagging thought reminds me it may be shut for a while but worth pursuing.

21st July 2005, 01:12 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, Thanks for the pics! You're quite right about the lack of "primitiveness" in the Torres Islands. What I was trying to get at (and failing) is that the shape of the grip on your sawfish bill (with a bulging handle and a pommel) doesn't look Oceanic. While there is one club (at the bottom) that has a pommel, the particular handle shape on the sawfish blade looks western to me. My personal guess is that someone made a sword out of a sawfish bill basically for fun. It could easily have come from the Torres Strait, and it could just as easily have been made by an Aussie as a native. Basically, to me it's a neat blade, whatever its origin. Absent some more information on decoration, tool marks, or the species of sawfish, all I can say is that it's fairly old. I don't think we've got enough information to assign an origin to it at the moment. Fearn

21st July 2005, 01:26 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,921	Hi Fearn, that Aussie must have been very busy, I bought this from a collection of weapons. Of this type of weapon this example was the best of three the others having damage, one with the handle broken off the other too may damaged teeth. I shall post picture of Papuan 'sword clubs' later this evening. They would seem to suggest what you consider as a european grip is some what universal in its pracitcality. Tim

21st July 2005, 01:52 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, What you suggest is entirely possible. While I don't recommend damaging collections, you might want to find out how easy it is to carve a sawfish bill. It's not steel, and it might be possible to make carve such a sword in an afternoon, given decent tools. That's why tool marks would be useful. So far as ID'ing this sawfish species, it turns out that sawfish taxonomy is kind of messed up. It looks like your specimen is not a bigtooth or smalltooth sawfish (see this link to a Florida museum). If true, this means that your sawfish wasn't caught in the Atlantic. There's a grad student at Iowa State who is currently reworking sawfish taxonomy. He might be able to give you some pointers on how to identify the sawfish that donated its bill here. In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing the other pieces. Fearn

21st July 2005, 02:20 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,921	Hi Fearn, I should be hard at work but something is disstrating me The possiblity of an Atlantic African origin is possible, the collection was largely 19th cent west African and Congo pieces with a few pieces from Indonesia and a few Papuan shields. I have been looking very closely at the carving of the handle with a loop and do not forget carving is my work. I can see no signs that this is one of an afternoons production. There are no saw or file marks which to me suggest it was cut with small hand tools the few marks do not give a good clue as to what type of tool was used. The handle has been painted with a black substance rather like tar. I would have thought it rather hard work in a dug out, to catch enougth big ones to carve a pile of these. I would be quite pleased to find out if these are from the coastal areas of say Gabon or the Congo. Clubs later work is breathing down my neck. Tim

21st July 2005, 02:44 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, That certainly helps. I'm glad you can provide an expert opinion on the tools that made that sawfish sword. Given that my understanding of sawfish biology comes almost entirely from the web, I believe that the Bigtooth and Smalltooth sawfishes are the only species in the tropical Atlantic, both in the Carribean, the South American coast, and the African coast (they're coastal animals apparently). Basically, your sword looks like it has too many teeth to be a smalltooth sawfish. That means that it didn't come from the Carribean or from west Africa. There are 3-6 other sawfish in the world, presumably in the Indian and Pacific oceans. If the saw didn't come from one of the Atlantic species, it came from one of the Indopacific ones. Personally, I'd recommend emailing that grad student. Speaking as a former biology grad student, most of us are quite happy when someone takes an interest in our particular branch of esoteric knowledge. He might be able to tell you what species of sawfish that came from, and where that species lives. Fearn

21st July 2005, 03:09 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Always trying to help via Google . http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/...wfishCITES.htm