Sea cow used for Iban hilts

Mytribalworld · 4th July 2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem, you live almost next to the Seacowbone-indificationcenter( beside de Kunsthal) ......why not ask them ?

Arjan

VVV · 4th July 2011, 05:14 PM

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

Michael

PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!

asomotif · 7th July 2011, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

I visited the NMR (Natuurkundig Museum Rotterdam) yesterday and only found dolfins and other small whales on display.
They probably have a dugong skeleton in their collection, but the conservator Mr Moeliker is on holidays.

Anyway, these skeletons can be found on the WWWeb, and personally if I check the bones, I can not find any bone (yet) that would be suitable to carve a hilt in te shape of mandau hilts.
So if anyone has a serious suggestion which bone is suitable to carve a mandauhilt, I would be much obliged.

Best regards,
Willem

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 12:59 PM

BTW, there has been quite a trade in arctic ivory (etc.) since at least the 18th and aparently somewhat world wide. I have an Indonesian statue of a rhinoceros made from what is clearly walrus tooth, for instance. So geography is no barrier to a material being used, or even popular, especially in seagoing cultures.
I find the sea/land division idea fascinating. Somehow seems to link to the tradition of not carrying kris across water?

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 02:02 PM

BTW, I would be very careful taking any antique to any official person of any kind for identification or any other reason, especially curators or academics you don't personally know. To some of them we private collectors are all dirty looters, and there is a host of reasons they could decide to take your antique, or even charge you with criminal charges; not just CITEs but national treasure type laws, weapon laws, who knows....but then I'm autistic, so moving thru human culture is quite a dark and risky journey for me, and being turned down is clearly not the worst that can happen when asking for help.

VANDOO · 7th July 2011, 06:33 PM

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

Mytribalworld · 7th July 2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

Did you ever have handled the bones or ribs from a sea cow or seen from very close ?

The bones are looking to me as very spongeous ( more than the ribs) , so don't know if that material should be usefull. In Japan they seem only to make carvings from the ribs. There are enough ribs for sale online but I never see the bones......

see also that the structure ( rib bone)has some enclosements what you can see the best in the first pic.

There's also another thing and that's the reputation of the Dugong. It seems that in the Philippines people believe they are bringing bad luck,while in parts of Indonesia they are considered reincarnations of women.

VVV · 7th July 2011, 10:52 PM

Arjan,

The German blade smith also confirmed that he uses the ribs for his hilts (see above) so I assume those, and the more expensive tusks, are the parts to use for hilts.
On the wikipedia page you quoted it also says that the tusks are used for sword handles in the Gulf states.
All over the archipelago you will find keris hilts made from dugong, gading laut, but I am not sure if it's only the tusks or some other parts [ribs] are use for this too? So maybe "in parts of Indonesia they [Dugong] are considered reincarnations of women" isn't such a bad thing anyway?
The full wikipedia quote for Philippines is: "In the Philippines dugongs are thought to bring bad luck, and parts of them are used to ward against evil spirits." This also seems useful for a sword or knife hilt...

Michael

PS If you do a search for "dugong" on this forum you will see several reference pictures of dugong hilts.
Here is an interesting dugong related thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=dugong

tom hyle · 9th July 2011, 07:28 AM

hmmm pics are good thanks. None of them show a hooked structure suitable to carve these hilts from, where there is clearly dense surface bone around the pith on all sides (ie including the butt side) of the hook.

7th July 2011, 10:52 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Arjan, The German blade smith also confirmed that he uses the ribs for his hilts (see above) so I assume those, and the more expensive tusks, are the parts to use for hilts. On the wikipedia page you quoted it also says that the tusks are used for sword handles in the Gulf states. All over the archipelago you will find keris hilts made from dugong, gading laut, but I am not sure if it's only the tusks or some other parts [ribs] are use for this too? So maybe "in parts of Indonesia they [Dugong] are considered reincarnations of women" isn't such a bad thing anyway? The full wikipedia quote for Philippines is: "In the Philippines dugongs are thought to bring bad luck, and parts of them are used to ward against evil spirits." This also seems useful for a sword or knife hilt... Michael PS If you do a search for "dugong" on this forum you will see several reference pictures of dugong hilts. Here is an interesting dugong related thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=dugong Last edited by VVV; 7th July 2011 at 11:22 PM. Reason: added link to a related old thread

4th July 2011, 05:14 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe? Michael PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!

7th July 2011, 12:59 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, there has been quite a trade in arctic ivory (etc.) since at least the 18th and aparently somewhat world wide. I have an Indonesian statue of a rhinoceros made from what is clearly walrus tooth, for instance. So geography is no barrier to a material being used, or even popular, especially in seagoing cultures. I find the sea/land division idea fascinating. Somehow seems to link to the tradition of not carrying kris across water?

7th July 2011, 02:02 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, I would be very careful taking any antique to any official person of any kind for identification or any other reason, especially curators or academics you don't personally know. To some of them we private collectors are all dirty looters, and there is a host of reasons they could decide to take your antique, or even charge you with criminal charges; not just CITEs but national treasure type laws, weapon laws, who knows....but then I'm autistic, so moving thru human culture is quite a dark and risky journey for me, and being turned down is clearly not the worst that can happen when asking for help.

7th July 2011, 06:33 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

9th July 2011, 07:28 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	hmmm pics are good thanks. None of them show a hooked structure suitable to carve these hilts from, where there is clearly dense surface bone around the pith on all sides (ie including the butt side) of the hook.