Odd or traditional selut for a Donoriko?

asomotif · 28th June 2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it?

Pfew ! with all respect for your very noble vision.
My feeling is that most western collectors want to pimp their keris to let it look like something it is not.

That the same thing is done in Indonesia does not surprise me.

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2011, 11:20 PM

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.

Within Indonesia incorrect components will also be mixed, but usually not stupidly mixed, for instance, a Madura or North Coast hilt might be put on a Solo wrongko, but most dealers I know are pretty restrained with their variations.

The danger in Indonesia, or more specifically Central Jawa, is the deliberate forgery and that generally will not affect collectors from outside Indonesia because only Indonesian collectors know sufficient and pay enough to get taken in.

The bigger danger for outside collectors is outright misrepresentation. Every single Indonesian dealer of whom I am aware, and who has sold into the western world, has indulged in misrepresentation, sometimes involving relatively heavy money, and always very obvious to somebody with a sufficient level of knowledge. On the ground in Indonesia, it can get much worse. Western collectors in Jawa are like goldfish swimming with sharks.

VVV · 29th June 2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.
snip...

Amen to that!

Michael

VVV · 7th October 2012, 01:10 PM

I found these pictures from Leiden's exhibition at Lorenz' site and was puzzled to see the pimped selut - donoriko combination again.
But this time it is with date and provenance.
Maybe this, less kitchy, selut was the inspiration for the later "upgrades"?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2012, 10:59 PM

In the museum section of the Mangkunegaraan in Solo there is a case with perhaps 6 or 8 of this type of dagger along with some other very fine weapons. You cannot photograph them, and you can only enter this section of the Mangkunegaraan with a guide in close attendance, I mean at your elbow the entire time. None of these daggers have hilts that look like the one in post #9, the usage shown in post #9 is neither fish nor fowl, it is a dagger type that is found in the Mangkunegaraan, but it is fitted with a Madurese keris hilt, altered to make a pleasing ensemble for a European.

The Central Javanese rulers were not above a bit of mixing and matching if they were trying to create a prestigious gift. This hilt no more belongs on a Central Javanese piece than wings belong on pigs, but the attitude was, and is:- whites don't know anything, so give them what they want, and we know they like nicely carved ivory. This hilt is a keris hilt and is incorrect for this type of dagger, but that doesn't matter:- it was prepared for a European, the objective was to please the white man, not to prepare something that was culturally correct.

The example prepared by the Mangkunegara as a gift for a European is no more an authentic Madurese usage than are the seluts of remarkably poor quality that are in the previous photos, but it is of very much higher quality. The Mangkunegara is the minor prince of Surakarta.

Attached are a couple of pics of Madura hilts with seluts. One is from a similar dagger to the one shown in post #9, one is from a pedang; one was prepared for sale pre-WWII, one was prepared for sale in the 1970's; both came from the same source. Both were fitted to the weapons in Central Jawa, specifically for sale to tourists.

Mixing and matching was not limited to shonks working out of Central Javanese markets, nor to forgers in Singapore and Jakarta, nor to UK arms dealers in Birmingham. It was and is very widespread.

VVV · 8th October 2012, 06:59 AM

Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either.
But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2012, 08:17 AM

I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops.

But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear.

Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.

7th October 2012, 01:10 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I found these pictures from Leiden's exhibition at Lorenz' site and was puzzled to see the pimped selut - donoriko combination again. But this time it is with date and provenance. Maybe this, less kitchy, selut was the inspiration for the later "upgrades"? Michael Attached Images

7th October 2012, 10:59 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	In the museum section of the Mangkunegaraan in Solo there is a case with perhaps 6 or 8 of this type of dagger along with some other very fine weapons. You cannot photograph them, and you can only enter this section of the Mangkunegaraan with a guide in close attendance, I mean at your elbow the entire time. None of these daggers have hilts that look like the one in post #9, the usage shown in post #9 is neither fish nor fowl, it is a dagger type that is found in the Mangkunegaraan, but it is fitted with a Madurese keris hilt, altered to make a pleasing ensemble for a European. The Central Javanese rulers were not above a bit of mixing and matching if they were trying to create a prestigious gift. This hilt no more belongs on a Central Javanese piece than wings belong on pigs, but the attitude was, and is:- whites don't know anything, so give them what they want, and we know they like nicely carved ivory. This hilt is a keris hilt and is incorrect for this type of dagger, but that doesn't matter:- it was prepared for a European, the objective was to please the white man, not to prepare something that was culturally correct. The example prepared by the Mangkunegara as a gift for a European is no more an authentic Madurese usage than are the seluts of remarkably poor quality that are in the previous photos, but it is of very much higher quality. The Mangkunegara is the minor prince of Surakarta. Attached are a couple of pics of Madura hilts with seluts. One is from a similar dagger to the one shown in post #9, one is from a pedang; one was prepared for sale pre-WWII, one was prepared for sale in the 1970's; both came from the same source. Both were fitted to the weapons in Central Jawa, specifically for sale to tourists. Mixing and matching was not limited to shonks working out of Central Javanese markets, nor to forgers in Singapore and Jakarta, nor to UK arms dealers in Birmingham. It was and is very widespread. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 7th October 2012 at 11:35 PM.

28th June 2011, 11:20 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell. Within Indonesia incorrect components will also be mixed, but usually not stupidly mixed, for instance, a Madura or North Coast hilt might be put on a Solo wrongko, but most dealers I know are pretty restrained with their variations. The danger in Indonesia, or more specifically Central Jawa, is the deliberate forgery and that generally will not affect collectors from outside Indonesia because only Indonesian collectors know sufficient and pay enough to get taken in. The bigger danger for outside collectors is outright misrepresentation. Every single Indonesian dealer of whom I am aware, and who has sold into the western world, has indulged in misrepresentation, sometimes involving relatively heavy money, and always very obvious to somebody with a sufficient level of knowledge. On the ground in Indonesia, it can get much worse. Western collectors in Jawa are like goldfish swimming with sharks.

8th October 2012, 06:59 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it is obvious that the keris hilt does not belong to the dagger either. But what puzzled me with this case is that these kind of selut upgrades seems to have been around for a century longer than earlier discussed. Michael

8th October 2012, 08:17 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I guess it just demonstrates how incredibly clever Javanese people are:- takes them almost no time at all to learn what makes a bule jump through the hoops. But seriously, the entire concept of "mix and match" is one of the major elements of Javanese culture. The essential nature of both culture and society has been the willingness to select individual elements of anything and combine those elements to form something new. Another defining feature of the Javanese people is that they will almost invariably provide an outsider with what they believe he wants to see and hear. Seluts have been around for a long time, and they are an easy and a popular way to provide a bit of bling but there is no way that we can consider the gift of the Mangkunegara in the same light as the rubbish that we can see in these other seluts. Personally, I don't find anything about this gift dagger strange at all:- it is something that was prepared specifically to please the boss.