Kattara for comments

[A.alnakkas]

Slightly off topic but are all Kattara have a flexible blade?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Slightly off topic but are all Kattara have a flexible blade?

Salaams,
So it seems. As a caution however please note that Omanis also call the Omani Short Battle Sword Kattara as well... so in that case no. In the Long .. yes.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to add two fine references to our work so far and as direct take offs from the web other Forum users may be interested to view these...

1.PISANELLO’S HAT.
THE COSTUME AND WEAPONS DEPICTED
IN PISANELLO’S MEDAL FOR JOHN VIII PALAEOLOGUS.
A DISCUSSION OF THE SABER AND RELATED WEAPONS.

and another

2.SWORDS AND SABERS DURING THE EARLY ISLAMIC PERIOD.

What is quite refreshing is that though we (certainly not I) did not have access earlier to these references that in retrospect they support our theory.

The question of Sword of the Prophet is clearly a complex one. D. Alexander variously tends to sideline the entire subject very cleverly by suggesting that dates may be false on some or more or less avoids the issue leaving in my mind "a view" that many of these weapons were either spoils of war or gifts to the family of the Prophet and to their vast armoury. (The Yemen it is known, gave many swords on this basis). A lot of them were later modified and decorated in gold etc. In my view and largely after his death the Prophets legacy inspired extensive socio / political spin doctoring and the Sword of The Prophet in whatever form may have been a vehicle for much of that. Indeed the bifurcated sword also adorned many battle banners centuries after and the banners themselves were split designs mirroring the two pointed or two spined weapon. On the crusades one european commentator got it wrong (understandably) when he related to the battle ensign shape as a pair of trousers on a pole! The bifurcated weapon thereby appears as part of an index or structure of Islamic Heraldic symbols and whereas all Heraldic symbolism is usually confined to shields the sword and sword hilt in particular regarding the Omani duo of weapons discussed certainly queu up for that sort of recognition.

Like D. Alexander I think we can boil down a deduction that the Islamic and much favoured double edged broadsword was a key component in what we have been discussing.

The fact that a sword was given to Ali by the Prophet illustrates an important factor when we consider the honorific status(to Ibadi Islam) we have discussed on the Omani Short and Old Omani Long Kattara in respect of their specially shaped Hilts.

One perplexing reference appears in the second reference to a master sword maker in Basra called "Zayd" in the correct time frame! ( I wish that this could be the same Zayd (Jabr Ibn Zayd) that returned to lead Oman against the Abbasids but as yet I have zero proof of this strange co incidence in names.) (Kufa is in Iraq) (Basura is of course Basra) viz;

~ Al-Kindi mentions a smith named Zayd, working in Kufa, and comments that one of the important types made in Kufa was the baid (white). He also noted that Basùra was an important center of production, swords produced there seem to have been renowned for the strength of their steel.~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim,
I start this letter with a simple phrase "The demolition of my own theory" and for that reason I place my 4 statements on a pedestal so that they can be seen to be knocked down where required viz;

1. "The Omani Short Battle Sword came into being between late 7thC and not later than 751 AD having been copied from the Abbasid sword then in use against Omanis in Oman by the Abbasid Garrison from Iraq"

2. ''The Old Omani Long Kattara was introduced at the beginning of Ibadi Islam not later than 751AD i.e. at the same time as the Short Omani Battle Sword''

3. The Modern Omani Long Kattara; (Long flexible usually European replacement blade with pommel tang and blade as one piece on a conical flat hilt). "This is the updated 17th C to 19th C rehilted on a new style blade, therefore, a totally restyled modern version of the old sword at 2.
The Shield, (Terrs) however, never changed".

4 . The Wallace Collection Sword; (Iconic badge of Office VIP Dress Sword on long carry scabbard with magnificent furniture and silver Hilt with a European Blade etc. No apparent Shield). "This is the restyled, exported, frozen old Omani Long Kattara awakened and brought up to Iconic, Badge of Office status for a dignitary or VIP. Likely provenance Yemen between the 17th and 19th Century A.D".

You will be delighted to hear that statement 1 stands and another is modified. The rest are about to fall; What struck me was that;

1. No example of an old Omani Long Kattara exists in any museum or collection neither complete ?
2. In blade only form?
3. Nor hilt only form?
4. In addition I could never find a shield to go with the Old Omani Battle Sword?
5. I could not fathom out why an Ibadi based religious country would export an Ibadi blade and or hilt to a non Ibadi country?
6. In that case why would the receiving country Iconize a religious blade not of their faith?
7. Why do Omani people call both the Short and Long; Kattara?

In researching David Alexander and David Nichol I discovered that the long cuff sword which looks like a stretched Omani Short Battle Sword is in fact Mamluke. That doesn't rule out a link altogether since Mamluke and Abbasid were very similar styles but it begins to deepen the dent and I believe the Wallace Collection Sword to be from that provenance ( geographically its only a short Red Sea trip from Mamluke Egypt to Saudia and Yemen so it fits the scenario whilst my link I believe disolves on motive, religion and just cause. I therefor withdraw statement 4.

Omani Long Kattara. This sword never existed before the 17th Century! Well it did... as the Omani Short Battle Sword !! It was simply superceded. We have been chasing a non existant weapon which explains why we could not find an original blade or hilt. Statement 2 is withdrawn

The Old Omani Short Battle Sword is the sword in the Funun and is a few inches shorter than when it started life but the wingshaped heavier blade (technically they didnt have the expertise to fuller this weapon) took a long time to replace. It was used with the Terrs shield in battle and in celebration of the Ibadi sect. In about the 17th Century it began to be superceded with the Long Kattara, from Euro trade blades. The Omanis simply switched the Terrs. The new sword was a more flexible blade and much lighter and enabled a more vigourous dance routine. Statement 1. stands and statement 3 is modified as "This is the updated 17th C to 19th C sword using new style european blade and adopting the Terrs Shield and eventually superceded the Old Omani Battle Sword.

It was not for nothing that both swords were called the same name ..Kattara.. because, in fact, prior to being superceded there was only one sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Awesome Job Ibrahim Jazaak allah khair. I liked it alot that you demolished your own theory which shows alot of professionalism in your quest for knowledge. Now after you demystified the mystery, how about we move to the Badaawi saif and the syrian style? :P

Perhaps your expertise will be best put in a book or a site dedicated for swords but in arabic. I find information about swords circulating the internet in arabic to be very unprofessional.

I'll email you soon and cant wait to see your opinion about such a thing.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Awesome Job Ibrahim Jazaak allah khair. I liked it alot that you demolished your own theory which shows alot of professionalism in your quest for knowledge. Now after you demystified the mystery, how about we move to the Badaawi saif and the syrian style? :P

Perhaps your expertise will be best put in a book or a site dedicated for swords but in arabic. I find information about swords circulating the internet in arabic to be very unprofessional.

I'll email you soon and cant wait to see your opinion about such a thing.

Salaams,
Heres a brilliant book all done in Persian and Arabic apparently...Sazmandehi Nezami va Sazman Razm va Tahavolat an dar Tarikhe Islam: az Agaz ta payan Asr Abbasi [Military Organization and Deployment in the History of Islam: From the beginning until the End of the Abbasids] by Ga’edan, Asgar, published in 2003 (1382) in Tehran.

[A.alnakkas]

Hmm, I have never heard of this book. Could be interesting to search for.