Different types of Peshkabz'

B.I · 20th July 2005, 12:02 AM

hi marc,
glad you stepped in

. this is a good beginning, and i hope we can push it further, past one persons opinion.
as a start - hobsons anology -

PESHCUBZ, s. A form of dagger, the blade of which has a straight thick back, while the edge curves inwardly from a broad base to a very sharp point. Pers. pesh-kabz, ‘fore-grip.’ The handle is usually made of shirmahi, ‘the white bone (tooth?) of a large cetacean’; probably morse-tooth, which is repeatedly mentioned in the early English trade with Persia as an article much in demand (e.g. see Sainsbury, ii. 65, 159, 204, 305; iii. 89, 162, 268, 287, &c.). [The peshkubz appears several times in Mr. Egerton’s Catalogue of Indian Arms, and one is illustrated, Pl. xv. No. 760.]

1767.—

“Received for sundry jewels, &c. … (Rs.) 7326 0 0
Ditto for knife, or peshcubz (misprinted pesheolz) 3500 0 0.”
Lord Clive’s Accounts, in Long, 497.

Rich · 20th July 2005, 02:48 AM

I'm trying to get a pic of what I thought was a peshcubz,
but I find it is a choora. Horn handle with nice pique
work and sheath.

Also, seems to me that there is little difference between
a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade
back???

Rich S

Andrew · 20th July 2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

.

Also, seems to me that there is little difference between
a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade
back???

Rich S

I think size is the primary difference, Rich. (Sometimes it does matter.

).

Rich · 20th July 2005, 12:44 PM

Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-).
Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of
etching. All steel mounts with silver picque
work in handle.

Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts.
It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different
from the knife? I do think they are an original
set given the perfect fit.

Any idea what period or location this might be
from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it
up a couple years ago just because it was a neat
knife.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg

Thanks
Rich

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2005, 04:32 PM

Hi Rich,

Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both

.
I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz.

Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says.

CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber.

KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII).

KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size.

PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose.

I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt?

Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.

ariel · 21st July 2005, 12:09 AM

Here is an illustration:a small Khyber (blade 15 inch) and a large Karud (blade 12 inch). Both are pretty simple, but Karud is of much better quality. Both have T-spines and bone handles. The blade of Khyber was sharpened so often that is narrowed down a lot. Khyber has an old label attached: beautiful Victorian handwriting, and the ink became brown due to age "Mada Khel" (a place and a tribe in NE Afghanistan. Also, the scabbard has bits and pieces of Arabic, no more than 2-3 letters at a string, the rest faded.
The main difference between the two is in the handles: karud's is 2-3 times thicker. I can barely hold it well. Also, karud has a swivel attached to the handle. It has no hole in it, so it is not for a lanyard. Any ideas? Somehow, I have a gut feeling that Karud is of Uzbeki origin. Just a feeling....

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2005, 04:29 AM

Hi Jens,
Excellent post and great illustration from the very rare Holstein book!
It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on terminology and categorizing of these highly diffused weapons. I think Artzi has put together one of the most concise glossaries, but again, with such hybridization of these forms it seems more than difficult to be conclusive.

It seems to me that the karud, the primarily sword hilted mail piercing dagger was quite likely, as noted, the inspiration for the pesh kabz. The karud had an abruptly narrowing straight back reinforced blade that was strictly business for mail piercing. These seem to have developed in Persia and Central Asia and diffused into Afghanistan. The smaller choora which appears to be favored in tribal regions in Afghanistan has the same straight back T spined blade and a differently profiled hilt shape, typically with distinct sectioned construction.

The pesh kabz, while its regional disposition is highly diffused and unclear, seems characteristically to have a recurved blade which often, but certainly not always, does have the familiar T spine and sometimes reinforced blade point. The recurved blade on these is very interesting as this form is of course very similar to the bichwa daggers of India. While this term allegedly alludes to the scorpion sting, the shape actually is believed to derive from the buffalo horn, which was actually used in some proto-daggers of this type (Pant, p.153). In many weapons it is fascinating to note how in many cases the interesting forms are simply characterizations fashioned in metal of natures own living weapons from animals. It would seem that the recurve and armor piercing point on the pesh kabz would be in favor of the deadly upward thrust and it would be interesting to know the views of the martially inclined on that.

To add yet another element in the discussion of these various daggers we must also recall the kard, which was a flat bladed knife with straight blade that was highly favored in early Persia, Armenia, Turkey, Central Asia and India with most examples found of 17th-18th c.These occasionally were thickened at the point to pierce mail. It has been suggested that the term karud may derive from kard...possibly the karud itself evolved as a more defined weapon from these? The kard seems to have equal potential for utility use, much as the very similar Bukharen knives of this family, the bytshak.

I think Artzi's observation is well placed in noting that aside from very distinct examples, many of these hybrid forms may be best identified by materials and form of the hilt, as well as motif and markings.

All the best,
Jim

21st July 2005, 12:09 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is an illustration:a small Khyber (blade 15 inch) and a large Karud (blade 12 inch). Both are pretty simple, but Karud is of much better quality. Both have T-spines and bone handles. The blade of Khyber was sharpened so often that is narrowed down a lot. Khyber has an old label attached: beautiful Victorian handwriting, and the ink became brown due to age "Mada Khel" (a place and a tribe in NE Afghanistan. Also, the scabbard has bits and pieces of Arabic, no more than 2-3 letters at a string, the rest faded. The main difference between the two is in the handles: karud's is 2-3 times thicker. I can barely hold it well. Also, karud has a swivel attached to the handle. It has no hole in it, so it is not for a lanyard. Any ideas? Somehow, I have a gut feeling that Karud is of Uzbeki origin. Just a feeling.... Attached Images

20th July 2005, 12:02 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi marc, glad you stepped in . this is a good beginning, and i hope we can push it further, past one persons opinion. as a start - hobsons anology - PESHCUBZ, s. A form of dagger, the blade of which has a straight thick back, while the edge curves inwardly from a broad base to a very sharp point. Pers. pesh-kabz, ‘fore-grip.’ The handle is usually made of shirmahi, ‘the white bone (tooth?) of a large cetacean’; probably morse-tooth, which is repeatedly mentioned in the early English trade with Persia as an article much in demand (e.g. see Sainsbury, ii. 65, 159, 204, 305; iii. 89, 162, 268, 287, &c.). [The peshkubz appears several times in Mr. Egerton’s Catalogue of Indian Arms, and one is illustrated, Pl. xv. No. 760.] 1767.— “Received for sundry jewels, &c. … (Rs.) 7326 0 0 Ditto for knife, or peshcubz (misprinted pesheolz) 3500 0 0.” Lord Clive’s Accounts, in Long, 497.

20th July 2005, 02:48 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I'm trying to get a pic of what I thought was a peshcubz, but I find it is a choora. Horn handle with nice pique work and sheath. Also, seems to me that there is little difference between a Khayber sword/knife and a Kard other than the T blade back??? Rich S

20th July 2005, 12:44 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's a pic of my choora (ex: pesh :-). Blade 9 inches with very faint remnants of etching. All steel mounts with silver picque work in handle. Leather covered wooden sheath with brass mounts. It is unusual to have the sheath mounts different from the knife? I do think they are an original set given the perfect fit. Any idea what period or location this might be from? Definitely not my strong point. Picked it up a couple years ago just because it was a neat knife. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/choora.jpg Thanks Rich

20th July 2005, 04:32 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rich, Yes you have a Choora - you may even have both . I agree that the Pesh-Kabz is a tricky one, as it seems like Holstein has chosen to call all daggers from NNW India and Afghanistan shown, for Pesh-Kabz. Now, if we take our old trusty Stone, and read out aloud, here is what he says. CHOORA. The knife of the Mahsud, a tribe of the Khyber. It is like the Persian peshkabz; but made in the Khyber. KARUD. Persian, a straight-bladed peshkabz (Moser XII). KHYPER-KNIFE. I will drop that, as it is irrelevant due to the size. PESH-KABZ, PESHCUBZ, PESHQABZ. A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India. The name is Persian and means “foregrip”. The blade is of T section and is quite wide at the hilt, narrowing suddenly just below it, and then tapering regularly to a very slender point. As a rule the blade is straight, but not infrequently has a pronounced reverse curve. The hilt is often of walrus ivory (Persian, shirmani), and is heavy and has neither guard nor pommel. This knife is obviously intended for forcing an opening in a mail; and as a piece of engineering design could hardly be improved uponfor the purpose. I think the conclusion must be, that all the knives Holstein shows fit to Stone’s description, number three from right less than the others when it comes to the ‘suddenly narrowing’ of the blade, but still. To the Persian name Peshkabz can be added, that many of the knifes had local names, like Karud and Choora, but they are all Peshkabz’s, and what make them this, is the big hilt and the T spine on the blade. But if this is so, why does he call a Choora a Peshkabz, as the Choora’ hilt looks different, besides not having a ‘fat’ hilt? Funny that Stone writes ‘A form of dagger used in Persia and Northern India’. He must have, as they did in the early days, regarded Afghanistan as being part of India, since he does not mention Afghanistan in particular.

21st July 2005, 04:29 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,663	Hi Jens, Excellent post and great illustration from the very rare Holstein book! It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on terminology and categorizing of these highly diffused weapons. I think Artzi has put together one of the most concise glossaries, but again, with such hybridization of these forms it seems more than difficult to be conclusive. It seems to me that the karud, the primarily sword hilted mail piercing dagger was quite likely, as noted, the inspiration for the pesh kabz. The karud had an abruptly narrowing straight back reinforced blade that was strictly business for mail piercing. These seem to have developed in Persia and Central Asia and diffused into Afghanistan. The smaller choora which appears to be favored in tribal regions in Afghanistan has the same straight back T spined blade and a differently profiled hilt shape, typically with distinct sectioned construction. The pesh kabz, while its regional disposition is highly diffused and unclear, seems characteristically to have a recurved blade which often, but certainly not always, does have the familiar T spine and sometimes reinforced blade point. The recurved blade on these is very interesting as this form is of course very similar to the bichwa daggers of India. While this term allegedly alludes to the scorpion sting, the shape actually is believed to derive from the buffalo horn, which was actually used in some proto-daggers of this type (Pant, p.153). In many weapons it is fascinating to note how in many cases the interesting forms are simply characterizations fashioned in metal of natures own living weapons from animals. It would seem that the recurve and armor piercing point on the pesh kabz would be in favor of the deadly upward thrust and it would be interesting to know the views of the martially inclined on that. To add yet another element in the discussion of these various daggers we must also recall the kard, which was a flat bladed knife with straight blade that was highly favored in early Persia, Armenia, Turkey, Central Asia and India with most examples found of 17th-18th c.These occasionally were thickened at the point to pierce mail. It has been suggested that the term karud may derive from kard...possibly the karud itself evolved as a more defined weapon from these? The kard seems to have equal potential for utility use, much as the very similar Bukharen knives of this family, the bytshak. I think Artzi's observation is well placed in noting that aside from very distinct examples, many of these hybrid forms may be best identified by materials and form of the hilt, as well as motif and markings. All the best, Jim