What does magnetism mean on a blade?

erlikhan · 16th May 2009, 01:57 PM

This Turkish dagger pulls small metals. These inkpen tips must be brass. it pulls some other small metal pieces too. I have bought it months ago and now it still has the same magnetic power. What does it mean on a blade?
Meanwhile can anybody translate what writes in the maker's stamp?

regards

David · 16th May 2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

This Turkish dagger pulls small metals. These inkpen tips must be brass. it pulls some other small metal pieces too.

I don't think that brass is magnetic so these tips must have some steel in them. Blades are very easy to magnetize and usually hold the charge quite well. It can easily happen accidentally as well. So i don't think it means anything in particular. I always check all the blades i get for magnetic fields. If they don't respond to my compass i generally magnetize them myself. Don't ask me why or i'll have to kill you.

erlikhan · 16th May 2009, 06:02 PM

Lol. Do they hold charge for months? The tips are yellow, but perhaps there is some steel mixed to reinforce them i dont know but let me try to magnetize some of my blades,the ones which i plan to sell

David · 16th May 2009, 07:14 PM

I just checked a couple of keris that i exposed to a high powered magnet over a year ago which can still pick up a pin. All i did to charge these blades was to hold the tip on the magnet for less than a minute.
So why are you only going to magnetize the blades you are planning on selling?

ariel · 16th May 2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I just checked a couple of keris that i exposed to a high powered magnet over a year ago which can still pick up a pin. All i did to charge these blades was to hold the tip on the magnet for less than a minute.
So why are you only going to magnetize the blades you are planning on selling?

They attract money:-)

David · 16th May 2009, 08:50 PM

erlikhan · 17th May 2009, 12:31 AM

Yes magnetism must attract the extra amount of money i paid for it back to me

Battara · 17th May 2009, 12:56 AM

Brass is not magnetic so yes they are probably made of steel.

And I wish I attracted money.....

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2009, 03:24 AM

This really is a fascinating topic, magnetism in the steel of edged weapons blades, and discussed some time ago in another fascinating thread initiated by Jens.
While I cannot add much to the metallurgical aspects, I do know that magnetite is a mineral often found in the iron forged into the steel used in blades. This mineral is of course allied with the mysterious magnetic lodestone, which is used in so many ways.

What puzzles me is why someone would want a blade magnetized, and I cannot think of any practical purpose, leading me as always, to wondering about superstitious or magical associations. It does seem like there is the possibility of inadvertant magnetization, but for the sake of discussion, perhaps a blade intended to be imbued with magical or potent powers, this property would be somewhat convincing.

The magnetic lodestone was included in folklore from early times, and the Spanish 'Gitanos' believed these magnetic/magical stones would keep them from drowning (if at sea) and that this mineral would make one impervious to lead or steel, obviously an attractive property in a weapon.
While this obviously derives from the Spanish gypsies, perhaps similar folk religion concepts were present throughout the widespread diffusion of these colorful people, even into Ottoman regions.

Clearly speculation intended only as food for thought on why a blade would be deliberately magnetized, and not suggesting this weapon has anything to do with Gypsies, Spaniards or anything other than an Ottoman weapon.

The interesting pattern in the deep channelling in the blade reminds me of these patterns on blades of early Italian sabres, and similar channeling I believe is present in lesser degree on Qamas from the Ottoman sphere.

It seems there have been a number of weapons described with magnetic properties in the blades, from India and I believe kerises, and I wonder if there is more to this.

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 17th May 2009, 03:39 AM

My understanding is that steel becomes magnetized by constant rubbing, an old school experiment from the deep dark vaults of years gone by.
I think the constant in out in out of a sheath would do this.

Gav

fearn · 17th May 2009, 03:40 AM

Hi Jim,

What's wrong with the "inherently cool" hypothesis for this phenomenon. In other words, it's kind of inherently cool to magnetize a blade, isn't it?

I've got to admit, I saw David's reply, and I'm thinking of doing that myself. It will make that shelf full of khukuris interesting to handle, though, if they all attract each other as I tried to grab one

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2009, 04:37 AM

Hi Gav,
You're right, such rubbing action certainly might in some degree cause some static electric type effect.
In looking back on this topic, I was rereading Jens' thread on magnetic blades from 2005 (now in the Classic Threads file) and this discussion was incredible! While about 99% of it was so far over my head, it was still so well worded that it was even understandable to me, and fascinating.

Apparantly 'Mare Rosu' (Gene) had a dagger from Mysore that had some sort of multipolar magnetic phenomenon going on, and different parts of the blade had magnetic poles facing alternate directions! Even Dr. Ann Feuerbach, who wrote her Ph.D paper on crucible steel came in on the discussion, and was as intrigued by the topic as all the rest of us.
I found references in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour" p.90-92) where the smelting of ingots in regions in Hyderbad contained magnetic schist mixed with haematites and black ferruginous sands and were exported to Persia, Syria and East Africa from Cutch.

It was noted in the thread that magnetization can occur from grinding and sharpenening or various 'working' of the blade, which would fall in line with your suggestion of repeated rubbing. Apparantly, polishing stones sometimes include lodestone, again toward these possibilities.

Apparantly, my thought on magnetic application to a blade to suggest quality, i.e. steel from sources such as this sought after Hyderabad product was suggested by Tom Hyle (Feb. 20, 2005) in this classic thread.

Fearn, nothing at all wrong with the 'way cool' theory

...in fact, pretty neat idea in sword combat....the other guys sword gets dragged to your blade. Wonder why the Zorro guys didnt think of this..a magnetic sword and all the soldiers swords fly toward Zorro's

Hmmm. on second thought !
Really bad visual!

All the best,
Jim

David · 17th May 2009, 04:08 PM

Here's the link to the magnetism thread Jim mentioned:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=magnetic

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2009, 08:41 AM

Just found this:

From "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, London, 1994, p.86).

H.H. Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti explaining to the Dr. Elgood how a magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raises its esteem:

"...I have known soldiers from my guard, when out of uniform and wearing thier janabi, showing off the quality of thier blade by trying to lift coins and moving them ever so slightly. The very best janabi and nimcha blades were imported into the Hadrahmaut from Hyderabad, where they are made and known as 'Haiderabad'."

In my previous post the magnetic schist in steel from Hyderabad is noted.

kronckew · 21st May 2009, 10:32 AM

carbon steel loses it's magnetism when heated, an effect used by smiths when heat treating - hardening. the temp at which the steel is no longer attracted to a magnet is the temp at which it should reach before it is suddenly cooled in oil or water (or a slave). the experienced smiths know when that point is reached by the color or the steel. any magnetism after that has been re-added. magnetic sword holders were popular for wall hanging, which imparts magnetism. sitting in the earths magnetic field for an extended period of not being moved will magnetize steel (or CRT TV screens). working the steel can also do it. i remember a teacher taking an iron rod and demonstrating it was not magnetized. he then gave it a few good whacks on one end with a hammer and then demonstrated it would then pick up iron filings. (he then demag'd it with an AC coil like that which was used to demag TV screens).

pen nibs are usually a high carbon steel plated in gold (or platinum for the expensive ones). that makes them resist corrosion from the ink and keeps the writing smooth over it's life time. the 'brass' nibs are likely just gold plated steel. gold, brass, copper is not magnetic or attracted in a constant magnetic field unless there is an electric current going thru it, like in a copper wire coil on a motor...

Dmitry · 20th June 2011, 04:39 AM

Is the dagger pictured above from the Trabzon/Trebizond area?

tom hyle · 20th June 2011, 03:18 PM

I have a flat brass Islammic charm that contains a magnet. I wonder if it would have anything to do with protection from edged weapons.
I once sent a detailed picture of it to a friend to post here, as I am not competent to do so; everything else in the package arrived, but that picture was lost in the mail. "It may be a charm against being identified or mailed?" I quipped at the time.

I'm going to have to try that demagnetizing method with the AC coil; where does one obtain such a tool? It seems to me magnetism is a drawback in a blade; attracts armour rather than seams, attracts parrying blades rather than the spaces between them

I have an old salawar yatagan type Peabody bayonet, seemingly made of "cast steel", that is very strongly magnetized at the tip, and the feature annoys me.

16th May 2009, 01:57 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	What does magnetism mean on a blade? This Turkish dagger pulls small metals. These inkpen tips must be brass. it pulls some other small metal pieces too. I have bought it months ago and now it still has the same magnetic power. What does it mean on a blade? Meanwhile can anybody translate what writes in the maker's stamp? regards Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 16th May 2009 at 02:14 PM.

17th May 2009, 03:39 AM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My understanding My understanding is that steel becomes magnetized by constant rubbing, an old school experiment from the deep dark vaults of years gone by. I think the constant in out in out of a sheath would do this. Gav

21st May 2009, 10:32 AM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	carbon steel loses it's magnetism when heated, an effect used by smiths when heat treating - hardening. the temp at which the steel is no longer attracted to a magnet is the temp at which it should reach before it is suddenly cooled in oil or water (or a slave). the experienced smiths know when that point is reached by the color or the steel. any magnetism after that has been re-added. magnetic sword holders were popular for wall hanging, which imparts magnetism. sitting in the earths magnetic field for an extended period of not being moved will magnetize steel (or CRT TV screens). working the steel can also do it. i remember a teacher taking an iron rod and demonstrating it was not magnetized. he then gave it a few good whacks on one end with a hammer and then demonstrated it would then pick up iron filings. (he then demag'd it with an AC coil like that which was used to demag TV screens). pen nibs are usually a high carbon steel plated in gold (or platinum for the expensive ones). that makes them resist corrosion from the ink and keeps the writing smooth over it's life time. the 'brass' nibs are likely just gold plated steel. gold, brass, copper is not magnetic or attracted in a constant magnetic field unless there is an electric current going thru it, like in a copper wire coil on a motor... Last edited by kronckew; 21st May 2009 at 10:46 AM.

16th May 2009, 06:02 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Lol. Do they hold charge for months? The tips are yellow, but perhaps there is some steel mixed to reinforce them i dont know but let me try to magnetize some of my blades,the ones which i plan to sell

16th May 2009, 07:14 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	I just checked a couple of keris that i exposed to a high powered magnet over a year ago which can still pick up a pin. All i did to charge these blades was to hold the tip on the magnet for less than a minute. So why are you only going to magnetize the blades you are planning on selling?

16th May 2009, 08:50 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130

17th May 2009, 12:31 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes magnetism must attract the extra amount of money i paid for it back to me

17th May 2009, 12:56 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Brass is not magnetic so yes they are probably made of steel. And I wish I attracted money.....

17th May 2009, 03:24 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This really is a fascinating topic, magnetism in the steel of edged weapons blades, and discussed some time ago in another fascinating thread initiated by Jens. While I cannot add much to the metallurgical aspects, I do know that magnetite is a mineral often found in the iron forged into the steel used in blades. This mineral is of course allied with the mysterious magnetic lodestone, which is used in so many ways. What puzzles me is why someone would want a blade magnetized, and I cannot think of any practical purpose, leading me as always, to wondering about superstitious or magical associations. It does seem like there is the possibility of inadvertant magnetization, but for the sake of discussion, perhaps a blade intended to be imbued with magical or potent powers, this property would be somewhat convincing. The magnetic lodestone was included in folklore from early times, and the Spanish 'Gitanos' believed these magnetic/magical stones would keep them from drowning (if at sea) and that this mineral would make one impervious to lead or steel, obviously an attractive property in a weapon. While this obviously derives from the Spanish gypsies, perhaps similar folk religion concepts were present throughout the widespread diffusion of these colorful people, even into Ottoman regions. Clearly speculation intended only as food for thought on why a blade would be deliberately magnetized, and not suggesting this weapon has anything to do with Gypsies, Spaniards or anything other than an Ottoman weapon. The interesting pattern in the deep channelling in the blade reminds me of these patterns on blades of early Italian sabres, and similar channeling I believe is present in lesser degree on Qamas from the Ottoman sphere. It seems there have been a number of weapons described with magnetic properties in the blades, from India and I believe kerises, and I wonder if there is more to this. All best regards, Jim

17th May 2009, 03:40 AM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, What's wrong with the "inherently cool" hypothesis for this phenomenon. In other words, it's kind of inherently cool to magnetize a blade, isn't it? I've got to admit, I saw David's reply, and I'm thinking of doing that myself. It will make that shelf full of khukuris interesting to handle, though, if they all attract each other as I tried to grab one Best, F

17th May 2009, 04:37 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Gav, You're right, such rubbing action certainly might in some degree cause some static electric type effect. In looking back on this topic, I was rereading Jens' thread on magnetic blades from 2005 (now in the Classic Threads file) and this discussion was incredible! While about 99% of it was so far over my head, it was still so well worded that it was even understandable to me, and fascinating. Apparantly 'Mare Rosu' (Gene) had a dagger from Mysore that had some sort of multipolar magnetic phenomenon going on, and different parts of the blade had magnetic poles facing alternate directions! Even Dr. Ann Feuerbach, who wrote her Ph.D paper on crucible steel came in on the discussion, and was as intrigued by the topic as all the rest of us. I found references in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armour" p.90-92) where the smelting of ingots in regions in Hyderbad contained magnetic schist mixed with haematites and black ferruginous sands and were exported to Persia, Syria and East Africa from Cutch. It was noted in the thread that magnetization can occur from grinding and sharpenening or various 'working' of the blade, which would fall in line with your suggestion of repeated rubbing. Apparantly, polishing stones sometimes include lodestone, again toward these possibilities. Apparantly, my thought on magnetic application to a blade to suggest quality, i.e. steel from sources such as this sought after Hyderabad product was suggested by Tom Hyle (Feb. 20, 2005) in this classic thread. Fearn, nothing at all wrong with the 'way cool' theory ...in fact, pretty neat idea in sword combat....the other guys sword gets dragged to your blade. Wonder why the Zorro guys didnt think of this..a magnetic sword and all the soldiers swords fly toward Zorro's Hmmm. on second thought ! Really bad visual! All the best, Jim

17th May 2009, 04:08 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Here's the link to the magnetism thread Jim mentioned: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=magnetic

21st May 2009, 08:41 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Just found this: From "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, London, 1994, p.86). H.H. Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti explaining to the Dr. Elgood how a magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raises its esteem: "...I have known soldiers from my guard, when out of uniform and wearing thier janabi, showing off the quality of thier blade by trying to lift coins and moving them ever so slightly. The very best janabi and nimcha blades were imported into the Hadrahmaut from Hyderabad, where they are made and known as 'Haiderabad'." In my previous post the magnetic schist in steel from Hyderabad is noted.

20th June 2011, 04:39 AM	#16
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Is the dagger pictured above from the Trabzon/Trebizond area?

20th June 2011, 03:18 PM	#17
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I have a flat brass Islammic charm that contains a magnet. I wonder if it would have anything to do with protection from edged weapons. I once sent a detailed picture of it to a friend to post here, as I am not competent to do so; everything else in the package arrived, but that picture was lost in the mail. "It may be a charm against being identified or mailed?" I quipped at the time. I'm going to have to try that demagnetizing method with the AC coil; where does one obtain such a tool? It seems to me magnetism is a drawback in a blade; attracts armour rather than seams, attracts parrying blades rather than the spaces between them I have an old salawar yatagan type Peabody bayonet, seemingly made of "cast steel", that is very strongly magnetized at the tip, and the feature annoys me.