Interesting North African, Berber? swords

tom hyle · 13th June 2011, 05:25 PM

No, that is not the only resemblance to a kampilan.
I was, in fact, considering the wooden/horn crossguard, and particularly the way its ends curve up, toward the pommel as resembling the crossguard on kampilan.
It also resembles a feature common on Chinese hilts (jian style), and I spent a bit overnite wondering if they might be Uighur etc. Chinese influenced swords.
The Tunisia ID seems correct though.

Martin Lubojacky · 17th June 2011, 11:24 PM

Hello,

Since Iain cited me, I should, maybe, add: My knowledge is only based on the following experience: As far as south Mediterranean coast is concerned I raked antique shops and markets in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt some time ago, and I saw (old) swords with this hilts in Tunisia (Djerba) only. I think it does not mean they are comming from Djerba (main Tunisian antique vendors are, in fact, a few big families, but their members are located "everywhere" and they move the goods in accordance with need), I just saw them there (and I have never been to Algeria or Morocco, so this research is not complete). By the way, you can find this "insert carpit like central sections" on Bu Saadi daggers´sheaths relatively often, too.

Regards,
Martin

Iain · 18th June 2011, 12:50 PM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for jumping in. I think even your somewhat limited experience with this sword type is extremely valuable as previously there was almost no data on them. I think it is fairly safe to say they are found on the N. African coast and from that Berber seems the most applicable, if generic, label to use.

I would be surprised if they are encountered in Morocco given the fairly strong base of knowledge for weapons in that region and the fact that blades of this type are also encountered in nimcha mounts.

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

No, that is not the only resemblance to a kampilan.
I was, in fact, considering the wooden/horn crossguard, and particularly the way its ends curve up, toward the pommel as resembling the crossguard on kampilan.
It also resembles a feature common on Chinese hilts (jian style), and I spent a bit overnite wondering if they might be Uighur etc. Chinese influenced swords.
The Tunisia ID seems correct though.

Actually in perspective that is a fairly placed note in the comparison, and when considering the commonality of the crossguard shape, in an entirely free association sense it is similar. They are both blockish in shape and the somewhat subtle upward motion indeed recalls by that condition the heavy shape of the guards on jian. I did not realize the comparison had nothing to do with suggesting any connection, so stylistically perhaps the similarity is valid in degree.

tom hyle · 19th June 2011, 08:50 AM

Resemblance does suggest connection, but suggestions are not always correct; they are suggestions. One only finds out if they are correct by exploring them freely.

Martin Lubojacky · 14th January 2013, 10:23 PM

Fresh Dom´s thread brought me one and half year back - to this thread about Berber´s swords: Enclosed is photo with streight swords employing the typical handles. It is from Tripolis (Libya), 1898 - 1906

TVV · 14th January 2013, 10:40 PM

Great photo that clearly shows hilts of this type, and links them to Tripoli, Libiya specifically. Well done Martin,
Teodor

Martin Lubojacky · 14th January 2013, 10:49 PM

Thanks. It was pictured of by the traveller Bedrich Machulka

Iain · 15th January 2013, 06:14 PM

Hi Martin, thanks so much for the photo. The example in the Royal Armouries at Leeds is listed as Tunisian, but I guess this shows the style was a bit more widespread. Which makes sense.

14th January 2013, 10:23 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Fresh Dom´s thread brought me one and half year back - to this thread about Berber´s swords: Enclosed is photo with streight swords employing the typical handles. It is from Tripolis (Libya), 1898 - 1906 Attached Images

14th January 2013, 10:40 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Great photo that clearly shows hilts of this type, and links them to Tripoli, Libiya specifically. Well done Martin, Teodor Last edited by TVV; 15th January 2013 at 01:39 AM.

13th June 2011, 05:25 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	No, that is not the only resemblance to a kampilan. I was, in fact, considering the wooden/horn crossguard, and particularly the way its ends curve up, toward the pommel as resembling the crossguard on kampilan. It also resembles a feature common on Chinese hilts (jian style), and I spent a bit overnite wondering if they might be Uighur etc. Chinese influenced swords. The Tunisia ID seems correct though.

17th June 2011, 11:24 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hello, Since Iain cited me, I should, maybe, add: My knowledge is only based on the following experience: As far as south Mediterranean coast is concerned I raked antique shops and markets in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt some time ago, and I saw (old) swords with this hilts in Tunisia (Djerba) only. I think it does not mean they are comming from Djerba (main Tunisian antique vendors are, in fact, a few big families, but their members are located "everywhere" and they move the goods in accordance with need), I just saw them there (and I have never been to Algeria or Morocco, so this research is not complete). By the way, you can find this "insert carpit like central sections" on Bu Saadi daggers´sheaths relatively often, too. Regards, Martin

18th June 2011, 12:50 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Martin, Thanks for jumping in. I think even your somewhat limited experience with this sword type is extremely valuable as previously there was almost no data on them. I think it is fairly safe to say they are found on the N. African coast and from that Berber seems the most applicable, if generic, label to use. I would be surprised if they are encountered in Morocco given the fairly strong base of knowledge for weapons in that region and the fact that blades of this type are also encountered in nimcha mounts. Cheers, Iain

19th June 2011, 08:50 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Resemblance does suggest connection, but suggestions are not always correct; they are suggestions. One only finds out if they are correct by exploring them freely.

14th January 2013, 10:49 PM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thanks. It was pictured of by the traveller Bedrich Machulka

15th January 2013, 06:14 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Martin, thanks so much for the photo. The example in the Royal Armouries at Leeds is listed as Tunisian, but I guess this shows the style was a bit more widespread. Which makes sense.