Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

kai · 16th July 2005, 10:35 PM

Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot).

The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge.

Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either...

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!

It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th July 2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references!

Well, I'm not going to answer to myself

but should add that this variety isn't mentioned in Pant, Rawson, nor Stone...

None of the many knowledgeable forumites specialising in Indo-Persian blades coming to the rescue? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 28th July 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi Kai,

Do you know if the blade has a tang?

True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?

You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?

Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.

Jens

kai · 29th July 2005, 02:16 AM

Hi Jens, Thanks for your input!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Do you know if the blade has a tang?

No idea. The blade is tightly secured by those 3 rivets. However, I played with the idea to clean up the hilt by electrolytic rust removal and would have to remove the blade for this.

Quote:

The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt?

Wouldn't the ricasso suggest an intact blade? IMVHO it would need some major reforging effort to come up with a new ricasso as well as the shape of the blade...

Possibly a boy's blade? I know it's the usual disingenous ad hoc assumption but the grip is also a bit on the small side.

Quote:

You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan?

Deccan

Quote:

Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look.

I would appreciate that very much! Take your time though.

Quote:

The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot.

I just defaulted on a parrot since that seems to be mentioned much more often than other birds. I'll have a close look again.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th November 2005, 12:37 PM

Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?

Jens Nordlunde · 13th November 2005, 01:54 PM

Hi Kai,

You did think I had forgotten you, didn’t you? Well I have not, but so far I have not seen it, maybe I have seen it somewhere else.
It is however a rather unusual blade, so there will not be many of them around, and as we don’t know what it is called, we will have to wait till a picture appears.
I have looked at the hilt again, and I think I will agree with you that it is a parrot.

Jens

kai · 13th November 2005, 11:13 PM

Hi Jens,

Thanks for the update! Actually, I was about to send the URL of this thread to a friend of mine and thought it wouldn't hurt to bring it back to the top...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I have looked at the hilt again, and I think I will agree with you that it is a parrot.

Yup, I think the colors work best for a parrot. A hawk has somewhat smaller eyes and while I couldn't exclude a falcon, the defining feature of a falcon's beak is missing. Thus, a positive identification doesn't seem to be possible but parrot seems to be most plausible to me, too.

Regards,
Kai

13th November 2005, 12:37 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	BTTT Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?

16th July 2005, 10:35 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot). The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge. Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either... I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references! It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates... Regards, Kai

28th July 2005, 01:12 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kai, Do you know if the blade has a tang? True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt? You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan? Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot. Jens

13th November 2005, 01:54 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kai, You did think I had forgotten you, didn’t you? Well I have not, but so far I have not seen it, maybe I have seen it somewhere else. It is however a rather unusual blade, so there will not be many of them around, and as we don’t know what it is called, we will have to wait till a picture appears. I have looked at the hilt again, and I think I will agree with you that it is a parrot. Jens