A Keris for slashing...

Alam Shah · 2nd June 2011, 10:07 AM

Hi, looking at the blade (including the tang), I feel that it is most likely from Sumbawa. The blade form in general can be found along Sumatra and along the Straits of Malacca and Sumbawa. I've seen example of this form in what seems to be authentic fitting dress. How this piece gets its current fittings, I've no idea, although other members had presented with some nice ones..

What makes me think its probably Sumbawa are.. the indicators from the blade base area, includes the awkward form at the gandik area, the sogokan, the greneng area and the long tang. The blade doesn't fit that well in the sheath. The mouth where the kembang kacang (belalai gajah) is, needed to be made bigger to accommodate the blade to fit the sheath (post #10).

David · 2nd June 2011, 02:03 PM

Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

Gustav · 2nd June 2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

David, perhaps you missed it, yet I already posted a link to this thread in #16.

David · 2nd June 2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, perhaps you missed it, yet I already posted a link to this thread in #16.

Yes, i did miss that Gustav.

So you also suspect a Sumbawa origin then...

mrwizard · 2nd June 2011, 09:03 PM

Hello everyone,

Yes, the keris looks a lot like the Sumbawa types shown in the thread referenced twice. And the pictures in post #1 show how i can hide the damage to the sheath.

But, regarding the historic background of whom i got this keris, i suspect (the also mentioned) central sumatra to be more likely the point of origin. As i have written in the first post, the family i got it from had relatives in Padang. Further research revealed that they moved there before 1831 (first recorded birth) and lived there for at least the next 120 years (last recorded death 1949).
Of course, considering that both Padang and Batavia where important harbours, the keris can still come from Sumbawa or from the Peninsula.

@Alam Sha
Yes, on the photo it might look like that, but the kembang kacang area fits sheath nicely. It just doesn't get fully in because the Warangka is not cut deep enough. The gonjo stands out 5mm to accomodate the strange wooden hilt piece. Therefore, i suspect that the sheath has been made for exactly these fittings.
Since you have seen similar keris with such a long tang. What did the dress look like? Did they have overly large hilts or large mendaks?

Edit: Ooops sorry, Gustav just pointed out in PM that the referenced thread already has some examples of keris with very long pendokok (e.g. post #51) and examples that would accomodate very long pesi (#52 ).

Best Regards,
Thilo

David · 3rd June 2011, 12:54 AM

Well Sumatra is perhaps the origin of the sheath, but i doubt that the blade itself originated there.
I just noticed from the close-up in post #18 that it seems to have a pamor wengkon. It will be very nice to see the blade cleaned and stained so that we can see this pamor stand out.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2011, 01:07 AM

I understand that for many who read what I will now write, I am close to uttering sacrilege, but the simple fact of the matter is this:-

for low quality blades produced as market commodities, as opposed to bespoke blades produced by an mpu for a specific person, the length of the pesi was not set at time of making:- it finished up as it finished up. It was expected that the buyer of the blade would trim the length of the pesi to suit the hilt.

Don't forget this:- many ready made blades were sold to people who made their own dress, they were not necessarily dressed by a specialist craftsman, nor were they dressed according to some esoteric belief that the pesi contained the spirit of the blade, to my knowledge, only a certain segment of present day keris collectors and mystics hold this belief.

There was no bar to the trimming of a pesi in a ready made keris in order that it would fit the hilt.

The same holds true today:- very often the pesi on mid to low quality present day keris will be far too long for the hilt, so the mranggi trims the pesi to the correct length. In a Surakarta keris this length is +/- 7cm measured from the top of the blade, not the top of the gonjo.

Sometimes we find a Javanese blade in Bugis dress. To fit the Bugis hilt the pesi is invariably shortened, and sometimes bent.

It is OK to dream about what is so and what is not so, but the people who actually make, maintain and use keris have not in the past, and do not now, necessarily subscribe to the same dreams that are held by many of the people who collect them.

mrwizard · 3rd June 2011, 10:18 AM

@David
Quite possible that it is indeed from Sumbawa, the real story behind this keris is most likely lost in time.
The keris is currently enjoying an extended bath in pineapple juice. I guess one or two more days and it will be clean. I will certainly post pictures when its ready

@Alan
Thank you. That is indeed an interesting bit of information. I was aware that keris are frequently modified to increase market value and that damaged keris are repaired. But otherwise i thought that except cleaning and restaining the keris had to be left untouched.

Best Regards,
Thilo

2nd June 2011, 10:07 AM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi, looking at the blade (including the tang), I feel that it is most likely from Sumbawa. The blade form in general can be found along Sumatra and along the Straits of Malacca and Sumbawa. I've seen example of this form in what seems to be authentic fitting dress. How this piece gets its current fittings, I've no idea, although other members had presented with some nice ones.. What makes me think its probably Sumbawa are.. the indicators from the blade base area, includes the awkward form at the gandik area, the sogokan, the greneng area and the long tang. The blade doesn't fit that well in the sheath. The mouth where the kembang kacang (belalai gajah) is, needed to be made bigger to accommodate the blade to fit the sheath (post #10).

2nd June 2011, 02:03 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Here is an interesting thread on Sumbawa keris. If indeed it turns out that this keris is from there it might give you some ideas. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

2nd June 2011, 09:03 PM	#5
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello everyone, Yes, the keris looks a lot like the Sumbawa types shown in the thread referenced twice. And the pictures in post #1 show how i can hide the damage to the sheath. But, regarding the historic background of whom i got this keris, i suspect (the also mentioned) central sumatra to be more likely the point of origin. As i have written in the first post, the family i got it from had relatives in Padang. Further research revealed that they moved there before 1831 (first recorded birth) and lived there for at least the next 120 years (last recorded death 1949). Of course, considering that both Padang and Batavia where important harbours, the keris can still come from Sumbawa or from the Peninsula. @Alam Sha Yes, on the photo it might look like that, but the kembang kacang area fits sheath nicely. It just doesn't get fully in because the Warangka is not cut deep enough. The gonjo stands out 5mm to accomodate the strange wooden hilt piece. Therefore, i suspect that the sheath has been made for exactly these fittings. Since you have seen similar keris with such a long tang. What did the dress look like? Did they have overly large hilts or large mendaks? Edit: Ooops sorry, Gustav just pointed out in PM that the referenced thread already has some examples of keris with very long pendokok (e.g. post #51) and examples that would accomodate very long pesi (#52 ). Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images Last edited by mrwizard; 2nd June 2011 at 10:31 PM.

3rd June 2011, 12:54 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well Sumatra is perhaps the origin of the sheath, but i doubt that the blade itself originated there. I just noticed from the close-up in post #18 that it seems to have a pamor wengkon. It will be very nice to see the blade cleaned and stained so that we can see this pamor stand out.

3rd June 2011, 01:07 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I understand that for many who read what I will now write, I am close to uttering sacrilege, but the simple fact of the matter is this:- for low quality blades produced as market commodities, as opposed to bespoke blades produced by an mpu for a specific person, the length of the pesi was not set at time of making:- it finished up as it finished up. It was expected that the buyer of the blade would trim the length of the pesi to suit the hilt. Don't forget this:- many ready made blades were sold to people who made their own dress, they were not necessarily dressed by a specialist craftsman, nor were they dressed according to some esoteric belief that the pesi contained the spirit of the blade, to my knowledge, only a certain segment of present day keris collectors and mystics hold this belief. There was no bar to the trimming of a pesi in a ready made keris in order that it would fit the hilt. The same holds true today:- very often the pesi on mid to low quality present day keris will be far too long for the hilt, so the mranggi trims the pesi to the correct length. In a Surakarta keris this length is +/- 7cm measured from the top of the blade, not the top of the gonjo. Sometimes we find a Javanese blade in Bugis dress. To fit the Bugis hilt the pesi is invariably shortened, and sometimes bent. It is OK to dream about what is so and what is not so, but the people who actually make, maintain and use keris have not in the past, and do not now, necessarily subscribe to the same dreams that are held by many of the people who collect them.

3rd June 2011, 10:18 AM	#8
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	@David Quite possible that it is indeed from Sumbawa, the real story behind this keris is most likely lost in time. The keris is currently enjoying an extended bath in pineapple juice. I guess one or two more days and it will be clean. I will certainly post pictures when its ready @Alan Thank you. That is indeed an interesting bit of information. I was aware that keris are frequently modified to increase market value and that damaged keris are repaired. But otherwise i thought that except cleaning and restaining the keris had to be left untouched. Best Regards, Thilo