Question of Spear origins

katana · 13th May 2011, 03:22 PM

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 14th May 2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

David,

Very plausible origins.

Communications with another astute member also suggested India. I wasn't going to start in India as a point of elimination but since several notations 'suggest' India I have started there tonight.

Although not of the type, Elgood presents spear blades with tangs and collars as did another reference to boar hunting in India....all showing 'loosely' similar profiled collars o various degree but partial tangs rather than what appears to be a full tang on this piece...maybe a step closer....

.....

Thanks

Gav

katana · 14th May 2011, 05:02 PM

G'day Gav,
This maybe Rajput ....the Sang often have the 'ringed collar' and usually a pronounced central rib. Although most Sang are 'all steel', some variants have a wooden shaft. Rajputs also used camels .....and many lances attributed to the 'camel cavalry' are 8 foot or so long.....a similar length to yours.

I am wondering whether the blade on yours was more leaf shaped and has had a later modification either through damage to one or both edges or as an improvement (perhaps to improve penetration) as yours still exibits a strong mid rib

Below is an image from Artzi's site, although this is a curved bladed version the ring collar is self evident.

Best
David

Gavin Nugent · 26th September 2011, 06:23 AM

Well I have had about 30 spears and pole arms arrive on Friday and I've been enjoying going over each one in detail and this spear is very interesting.

It is long and it is very thin but strong and flexible though I'm sure I could snap it over my knee with ease today but it would have served as a very efficient weapon in its day when stronger and more supple.

The head, collar and butt cap are all iron with a heavy but perfectly stable age patina and the head is lethal with great piercing ability by design and the edges are so fine they would have been like razors in the day.
The shaft is bamboo which has been fully wrapped with a fine fibrous material and then lacquered thickly to smooth the surface which also shows a painted surface, this alone can point to India for many but...I'll come to that in a second.
The fine head has the iron collar which is actually four pieces stacked atop each other and offers great support for the tang in such fine thin bamboo.

An interesting lance was offered to me on Saturday at the Brisbane arms fair, the size of a typical Sumatran lance on a thin light shaft, it had a head so very similar in design but created slightly different. The most interesting aspect I found was the brass collar it was sitting it, it carried designs that were clearly Thai to my eye....keeping this in mind, perhaps Thailand? It is after all, although in no way ruling out India, so very different from the heavy iron heads seen on the South Indian lances shown above...this thing is in the feather weight division by comparison.

Any thoughts more than welcome.

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 12th October 2011, 03:11 AM

Thanks to those who have provided input this far....another step towards Thailand perhaps...I'm still looking down this road...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=thailand

Note the spear of similar blade style, collar and thickness (and length if it rests on the ground) resting against this arch at the right (and one on the left)...

Has anyone other than Dan visited the Arms room of the Grand Palace Bangkok to comment first hand?? Nathaniel??

Andrew · 14th October 2011, 04:37 AM

Gav, I'm going to throw out a suggestion based on my admittedly unscientific "gut" feeling--Cambodia...

Nathaniel · 14th October 2011, 05:54 AM

Hello Gavin,

Missed your post on this thread otherwise I would have answered. Unfortunately, the three times we been to the Grand Palace, Chakri Maha Prasat hall that houses the arms room was closed. It's closed on the weekend and during the weekday it closes earlier than the temple of the Emerald Buddha which I did not know. I think if I remember right the building with the arms room might close by something like 3pm.

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2011, 12:33 AM

This is really an interesting thread, so its good to see it back. I really have little knowledge on both the fields of spears and SE Asian weapons, but looked into Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual") to see if anything relevant might be there.
On p.194 (19.13) a 'sang' type spear (with katar style head of Vellore gauntlet form) attributed probably to Mysore and late 16th century has these rings or collars on the socket and in the same illustration is a 'vel' with peepal leaf shaped head, to early 16th c.
It is noted that these collars, termed 'balls' in this text are called 'nala'. Apparantly these are decoration related to certain ankusa which are symbolic of royalty (op.cit. p.21) and much as on the 'vel' lance are stated to reflect the god Murukan.
Perhaps this decoration is significant in this regard?

On. p.192 spearheads in South India carry similar collars just below the flare of the head in varying spaced configuration apparantly the motif from 15th-16th century Vijayanagara. The design still popular during the Mysore wars of 18th century.

While it appears these collared sockets are prevalent in South India, as well of course as in Sri Lanka, it does seem quite possible that the influence might have extended into SE Asian countries including Thailand and Cambodia. I think the enthusiasts of the dha and weapons of these countries would have better insight, but I thought I'd add these notes.

All the best,
Jim

14th May 2011, 05:02 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	G'day Gav, This maybe Rajput ....the Sang often have the 'ringed collar' and usually a pronounced central rib. Although most Sang are 'all steel', some variants have a wooden shaft. Rajputs also used camels .....and many lances attributed to the 'camel cavalry' are 8 foot or so long.....a similar length to yours. I am wondering whether the blade on yours was more leaf shaped and has had a later modification either through damage to one or both edges or as an improvement (perhaps to improve penetration) as yours still exibits a strong mid rib Below is an image from Artzi's site, although this is a curved bladed version the ring collar is self evident. Best David Attached Images

26th September 2011, 06:23 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	In the hand Well I have had about 30 spears and pole arms arrive on Friday and I've been enjoying going over each one in detail and this spear is very interesting. It is long and it is very thin but strong and flexible though I'm sure I could snap it over my knee with ease today but it would have served as a very efficient weapon in its day when stronger and more supple. The head, collar and butt cap are all iron with a heavy but perfectly stable age patina and the head is lethal with great piercing ability by design and the edges are so fine they would have been like razors in the day. The shaft is bamboo which has been fully wrapped with a fine fibrous material and then lacquered thickly to smooth the surface which also shows a painted surface, this alone can point to India for many but...I'll come to that in a second. The fine head has the iron collar which is actually four pieces stacked atop each other and offers great support for the tang in such fine thin bamboo. An interesting lance was offered to me on Saturday at the Brisbane arms fair, the size of a typical Sumatran lance on a thin light shaft, it had a head so very similar in design but created slightly different. The most interesting aspect I found was the brass collar it was sitting it, it carried designs that were clearly Thai to my eye....keeping this in mind, perhaps Thailand? It is after all, although in no way ruling out India, so very different from the heavy iron heads seen on the South Indian lances shown above...this thing is in the feather weight division by comparison. Any thoughts more than welcome. Gav

12th October 2011, 03:11 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks to those who have provided input this far....another step towards Thailand perhaps...I'm still looking down this road... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=thailand Note the spear of similar blade style, collar and thickness (and length if it rests on the ground) resting against this arch at the right (and one on the left)... Has anyone other than Dan visited the Arms room of the Grand Palace Bangkok to comment first hand?? Nathaniel?? Attached Images

13th May 2011, 03:22 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Gav, without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers. Regards David

14th October 2011, 04:37 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Gav, I'm going to throw out a suggestion based on my admittedly unscientific "gut" feeling--Cambodia...

14th October 2011, 05:54 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hello Gavin, Missed your post on this thread otherwise I would have answered. Unfortunately, the three times we been to the Grand Palace, Chakri Maha Prasat hall that houses the arms room was closed. It's closed on the weekend and during the weekday it closes earlier than the temple of the Emerald Buddha which I did not know. I think if I remember right the building with the arms room might close by something like 3pm.

15th October 2011, 12:33 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	This is really an interesting thread, so its good to see it back. I really have little knowledge on both the fields of spears and SE Asian weapons, but looked into Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual") to see if anything relevant might be there. On p.194 (19.13) a 'sang' type spear (with katar style head of Vellore gauntlet form) attributed probably to Mysore and late 16th century has these rings or collars on the socket and in the same illustration is a 'vel' with peepal leaf shaped head, to early 16th c. It is noted that these collars, termed 'balls' in this text are called 'nala'. Apparantly these are decoration related to certain ankusa which are symbolic of royalty (op.cit. p.21) and much as on the 'vel' lance are stated to reflect the god Murukan. Perhaps this decoration is significant in this regard? On. p.192 spearheads in South India carry similar collars just below the flare of the head in varying spaced configuration apparantly the motif from 15th-16th century Vijayanagara. The design still popular during the Mysore wars of 18th century. While it appears these collared sockets are prevalent in South India, as well of course as in Sri Lanka, it does seem quite possible that the influence might have extended into SE Asian countries including Thailand and Cambodia. I think the enthusiasts of the dha and weapons of these countries would have better insight, but I thought I'd add these notes. All the best, Jim