Pen is mightier than the sword

katana · 12th May 2011, 11:00 PM

Hi Fearn,
agreed the short 'gladius' type swords are totally functional ...but only in certain environments/situations. One of the reasons why short swords were the common form in antiquity were due to forging/casting limitations. Once these metalurgical problems were 'ironed out' swords became longer increasing their reach and due to the mechanics of leverage etc the impact wound more devestating. With the longer swords Cavalry were much more effective. Swordsman facing opponents with the longer sword also found they were disadvantaged......generally. Of course confined spaces such as dense woodland, ship decks etc the opposite is true (situation/environment).

It seems that the short swords issued to the Artillery and some infantry were inaffective as a true weapon (back-up) when they were better (?) as an agricultural tool and regulary used as one. I have one in my collection ...it is very 'business-like'...but matched against longer swords and bayonet charges it has little chance.

My question revolves around the idea that the input of government 'pen pushers' had too much influence in a number of 'regulation millitary' swords....where other factors seem more important than suitabillity.

Are there any other ill conceived 'patterns'

Regards David

fearn · 13th May 2011, 01:19 AM

Hi David,

I'm not sure I've ever seen one, but I know that Burton railed against the "yataghan-bayonets" of the French in the 19th Century. In theory it sounds like a horrible design. In practice, I don't know.

Similarly, a saw-backed bayonet is kind of missing the point. The teeth will catch on anything you stab it into, so either it's not a functional bayonet or not a good saw.

Best,

F

Billman · 22nd May 2011, 10:33 AM

I am no expert on weapons (edge tools in general and billhooks in particular are my area of expertise), but the armies of northern Europe until the end of the 19th century or even up to WW1 were often issued with fascine knives that were a short multi-purpose sword - they were used for cutting fodder for horses, wood for shelters and firewood and could double as weapon if needed... They were the 'Woodsman's Pal' of their era... Some did have a saw back so they could be used on heavier wood.....

They were later replaced with a version that was more like a billhook - the fascine knife of the american revolutionary army, and the tool of WWI machine gunners and pioneer corps (sappers) of the armies on both sides...

See also: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...aschinenmesser and http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ife-Circa-date

For more images, see also: http://www.militaria-datenbank.com/s...?t\u003d135386 and
http://www.militaria-datenbank.com/s...?t\u003d134975 (via http://www.militaria-fundforum.com/s...74&language=en)

And even more from the Swiss army at: http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...com/topic/2409

Faskinkniv (Swedish/Danish) or faschinenmesser (German) of 1777 (brass handle), 1810 (sawback) and 1848 (wooden handle):

22nd May 2011, 10:33 AM	#3
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	I am no expert on weapons (edge tools in general and billhooks in particular are my area of expertise), but the armies of northern Europe until the end of the 19th century or even up to WW1 were often issued with fascine knives that were a short multi-purpose sword - they were used for cutting fodder for horses, wood for shelters and firewood and could double as weapon if needed... They were the 'Woodsman's Pal' of their era... Some did have a saw back so they could be used on heavier wood..... They were later replaced with a version that was more like a billhook - the fascine knife of the american revolutionary army, and the tool of WWI machine gunners and pioneer corps (sappers) of the armies on both sides... See also: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...aschinenmesser and http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...ife-Circa-date For more images, see also: http://www.militaria-datenbank.com/s...?t\u003d135386 and http://www.militaria-datenbank.com/s...?t\u003d134975 (via http://www.militaria-fundforum.com/s...74&language=en) And even more from the Swiss army at: http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...com/topic/2409 Faskinkniv (Swedish/Danish) or faschinenmesser (German) of 1777 (brass handle), 1810 (sawback) and 1848 (wooden handle): Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 22nd May 2011 at 11:23 AM.

12th May 2011, 11:00 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fearn, agreed the short 'gladius' type swords are totally functional ...but only in certain environments/situations. One of the reasons why short swords were the common form in antiquity were due to forging/casting limitations. Once these metalurgical problems were 'ironed out' swords became longer increasing their reach and due to the mechanics of leverage etc the impact wound more devestating. With the longer swords Cavalry were much more effective. Swordsman facing opponents with the longer sword also found they were disadvantaged......generally. Of course confined spaces such as dense woodland, ship decks etc the opposite is true (situation/environment). It seems that the short swords issued to the Artillery and some infantry were inaffective as a true weapon (back-up) when they were better (?) as an agricultural tool and regulary used as one. I have one in my collection ...it is very 'business-like'...but matched against longer swords and bayonet charges it has little chance. My question revolves around the idea that the input of government 'pen pushers' had too much influence in a number of 'regulation millitary' swords....where other factors seem more important than suitabillity. Are there any other ill conceived 'patterns' Regards David

13th May 2011, 01:19 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, I'm not sure I've ever seen one, but I know that Burton railed against the "yataghan-bayonets" of the French in the 19th Century. In theory it sounds like a horrible design. In practice, I don't know. Similarly, a saw-backed bayonet is kind of missing the point. The teeth will catch on anything you stab it into, so either it's not a functional bayonet or not a good saw. Best, F