keris for sharing \2

Greybeard · 12th May 2011, 11:53 AM

Thank you, Alan. When trying to determine a dapur I use the book "Dhapur", "Ensiklopedi Keris" plus several other books and booklets. Unfortunately, these sources don't always agree when it comes to details.

In the case of my keris, the dapur designation "Lung Gandu" is not mine but the seller's. It is indeed a well worn piece. Even in hand, it is difficult to tell whether there were originally two lambe gajah or not.

A. G. Maisey · 12th May 2011, 11:49 PM

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head.

In almost everything to do with the keris there is no solid, incontrovertible position that one can take and never get an argument.

There are a multitude of opinions, and many people believe that the opinion they hold is the correct opinion.

This is one more reason for providing the reasons and foundations for an opinion when it is given.

Greybeard · 13th May 2011, 07:18 PM

Alan, you are absolutely right -- I should be more accurate when posting here. The seller of my keris "Lung Gandu with one lambe gajah" classifies according to "Ensiklopedi Keris". When consulting my records, I see that he wrote "the dapur is similar to Lung Gandu"; he didn't write "the dapur is Lung Gandu" -- this makes quite a difference ...

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2011, 11:28 PM

Thank you Greybeard.

Yes, that description I can accept.

Personally I like a description that actually names the keris features, for example:- 9 wave, sogokan, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, ada2, gusen.

As soon as we start to stick a dhapur on something we get into deep water, because unless that blade comes from exactly the same foundation as the pakem you're using, its likely to be diluar pakem.

drdavid · 14th May 2011, 12:39 AM

Hi Alan
would you mind clarifying the term diluar pakem, am I correct in interpreting this as 'outside the pakem' or 'not of the pakem'
thanks
drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2011, 05:16 AM

"di luar" = outside

If we say that a keris is outside the pakem, we mean that the features (ricikan) that it has do not permit it to be aligned with any of the forms (dhapur) listed in that particular guide book (pakem).

However, that does not necessary mean that it is di luar pakem for all guidebooks.

People who have known me for any length of time know that one of my pet peeves is the "name game" :- that seeming compulsion of all collectors --- not only keris collectors, or weapons collectors --- to want to classify and categorise everything, as if that putting of a name on something is all that is necessary to justify the acquisition and retention of something.

Those with encyclopedic knowledge of names and the associated attributes are regarded as absolute authorities in the field.

I personally regard this game of putting names on things as so much nonsense, and a poor substitute for meaningful knowledge. Probably the only time I ever get involved in it is when people want to know what name to hang on a pamor or dhapur.

But don't mind me. I'm swimming against the tide. Everybody else seems to be vitally interested in this sort of stuff, so I'll go my own way, and when I am able, assist others to go their way.

semar · 14th May 2011, 06:06 AM

I have made a new picteur I think that it is easyer to say what the dapur is

regards semar

14th May 2011, 06:06 AM	#7
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	close up picteur I have made a new picteur I think that it is easyer to say what the dapur is regards semar Attached Images

12th May 2011, 11:53 AM	#1
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Thank you, Alan. When trying to determine a dapur I use the book "Dhapur", "Ensiklopedi Keris" plus several other books and booklets. Unfortunately, these sources don't always agree when it comes to details. In the case of my keris, the dapur designation "Lung Gandu" is not mine but the seller's. It is indeed a well worn piece. Even in hand, it is difficult to tell whether there were originally two lambe gajah or not.

12th May 2011, 11:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. In almost everything to do with the keris there is no solid, incontrovertible position that one can take and never get an argument. There are a multitude of opinions, and many people believe that the opinion they hold is the correct opinion. This is one more reason for providing the reasons and foundations for an opinion when it is given.

13th May 2011, 07:18 PM	#3
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Alan, you are absolutely right -- I should be more accurate when posting here. The seller of my keris "Lung Gandu with one lambe gajah" classifies according to "Ensiklopedi Keris". When consulting my records, I see that he wrote "the dapur is similar to Lung Gandu"; he didn't write "the dapur is Lung Gandu" -- this makes quite a difference ...

13th May 2011, 11:28 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you Greybeard. Yes, that description I can accept. Personally I like a description that actually names the keris features, for example:- 9 wave, sogokan, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, ada2, gusen. As soon as we start to stick a dhapur on something we get into deep water, because unless that blade comes from exactly the same foundation as the pakem you're using, its likely to be diluar pakem.

14th May 2011, 12:39 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Alan would you mind clarifying the term diluar pakem, am I correct in interpreting this as 'outside the pakem' or 'not of the pakem' thanks drdavid

14th May 2011, 05:16 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	"di luar" = outside If we say that a keris is outside the pakem, we mean that the features (ricikan) that it has do not permit it to be aligned with any of the forms (dhapur) listed in that particular guide book (pakem). However, that does not necessary mean that it is di luar pakem for all guidebooks. People who have known me for any length of time know that one of my pet peeves is the "name game" :- that seeming compulsion of all collectors --- not only keris collectors, or weapons collectors --- to want to classify and categorise everything, as if that putting of a name on something is all that is necessary to justify the acquisition and retention of something. Those with encyclopedic knowledge of names and the associated attributes are regarded as absolute authorities in the field. I personally regard this game of putting names on things as so much nonsense, and a poor substitute for meaningful knowledge. Probably the only time I ever get involved in it is when people want to know what name to hang on a pamor or dhapur. But don't mind me. I'm swimming against the tide. Everybody else seems to be vitally interested in this sort of stuff, so I'll go my own way, and when I am able, assist others to go their way.