my favorite rapier

fernando · 14th April 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

... Perhaps CAVALO MARINO has something to do with the locale? [San] Marino Cavalry?

I don't know; i would be more inclined to associate this inscription to the Cretan Galley than to the enclave named after the Monk of Rab.
At least it sounds more coherent, as the dual word term (sea horse) form a plausible alegory.
It must be an interesting museum, by the way.

cornelistromp · 16th April 2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't know; i would be more inclined to associate this inscription to the Cretan Galley than to the enclave named after the Monk of Rab.
At least it sounds more coherent, as the dual word term (sea horse) form a plausible alegory.
It must be an interesting museum, by the way.

Hi Dmitry,
thanks for the very nice picture !
I don't expect the sword had something to do with the cavalry of San Marino;
cavalry= cavalleria (IT) Caballeria(SP) Cavataria(PT)
Horse= Caballo (SP) cavallo (IT) cavalo (PT)
the translation of CAVALO MARINO is undoubtfully seahorse, and Seahorses do not come often on the mainland.

best,

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2011, 06:12 AM

Just to add to the ratiocination:

It is worthy of note that similar hilt configurations with this kind of pierced openwork in the elements are seen in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, Milan) example #142, shown as from Veneto c.1480-1500. Another two hander #584 c.1603 is seen with similar quadreform pierced pommel and quillons on guard (op. cit.).

Veneto is to the west of Venice, and there is a region known as Cavaion Veronese. This is simply worthy of note because of the similarity to the spelling of 'cavaio'. It seems likely that the 'cavaio' spelling is phonetically sounded to the word 'cavallo', which of course in Italian refers to horse.
The term cavallo is used describing a number of presumably cavalry or horsemans swords.

As is often the case, it seems there is always potential for classical and perhaps even mythological allusion in symbology in weapons with markings, inscriptions and phrases. With the term 'cavaio marino' it does seem to apply more to 'seahorse', as noted with the name of the galley at Lepanto.
It is not common however to put the name of an individual, ship or otherwise in the fuller of a sword as far as I am aware.

It seemed likely that perhaps heraldic metaphor might come into play with the seahorse in this case, and nothing specific was apparant, however in mythology the sea nymph Thetis, mother of Achilles, is sometimes depicted on a sea horse carrying the arms forged by Vulcan for Achilles.
("Fictitious and Symbolic Creatures in Art", John Vinycomb, 1909).

The weapons of Germany and Italy were often closely aligned in these times, and as has been noted, the mans head mark is similar to some of Solingen. The phonetic spelling of cavaio seems to reflect other instances where names or words spuriously applied in Solingen on blades often had spelling or other subtle errors.

We know that in Solingen blades were often tailored to certain markets and it is now believed that the names or words in blade fullers may well have been chosen and used to appeal to these markets. For example, the legendary Andrea Ferara name of course was favored in Scotland and was invariably placed on these broadsword blades; Sahagum blades often went to the north countries; Tomas Aiala is on rapier blades for export to Spain and its colonies.
Could the 'cavaio marino' carry classical allusion ? and perhaps be considered a 'brand' or blade type to appeal to Italian market?

Fanciful ? perhaps, but then sometimes such thinking is fun and at least worth considering.

fernando · 17th April 2011, 08:00 AM

Just a little note, Jim

.
It looks as the word inscribed in the blade is actually CAVALO; only Jasper has read it (or spelled it) wrong

.
Am i correct, Jasper ?

cornelistromp · 17th April 2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando

Just a little note, Jim

.
It looks as the word inscribed in the blade is actually CAVALO; only Jasper has read it (or spelled it) wrong

.
Am i correct, Jasper ?

Hi Fernando and Jim,

yes it is CAVALO, I misspelled it because when you pronounce cavalo, the L sounds like a I.

best,
Jasper

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2011, 05:03 PM

Its amazing what a simple error or omission can do in communication, in this case a simple letter, however this is exactly the kind of situations which permeate the weapons world much as any other. Transliteration and semantics have often steered accounts and understanding far off course.
However, in this case the suggestions still stand, we are still talking about the term 'seahorse' and how its application to this blade might be intended.

This phonetic spelling is exactly what I noted in my text, and the presumption that it might lead to Solingen was simplistic at best, but this situation has been seen profoundly in so many instances of blades known from there. Naturally spelling variations occurred constantly and these kinds of clues often are helpful in determining more on the words or inscriptions on swords.

Getting back to this rapier, it would seem that it has been reaffirmed in Italian context, but the question remains, why the seahorse term? Dmitrys suggestion for a unit of cavalry for San Marino, especially with a sword of such similarity held in that location was well reasoned and well placed.
However, again, these kinds of designations are seldom, if ever placed in the fullers of these blades.

While the seahorse is of course a nautical theme, its figure and character is likely to be present in other representations and allusions, especially in a heraldic sense. The maritime city states in Italy of course were nautical in primary sense, however they were with armies and presence in the regular parlance as well.

The term in the blade fuller remains a mystery but it is interesting trying different ideas to understand what it might mean. As always, strong possibility for the words being an allusion, term or expression intended to suggest the character or quality imbued in the blade. What would really be great would be finding another blade with these words!

It seems the sword type itself is pretty well established in Italy by the end of the 15th century, and these type features were used into the early 17th c

******Cerca Trova!*******

cornelistromp · 14th October 2014, 04:42 PM

example from musee de lármee

17th April 2011, 05:03 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Its amazing what a simple error or omission can do in communication, in this case a simple letter, however this is exactly the kind of situations which permeate the weapons world much as any other. Transliteration and semantics have often steered accounts and understanding far off course. However, in this case the suggestions still stand, we are still talking about the term 'seahorse' and how its application to this blade might be intended. This phonetic spelling is exactly what I noted in my text, and the presumption that it might lead to Solingen was simplistic at best, but this situation has been seen profoundly in so many instances of blades known from there. Naturally spelling variations occurred constantly and these kinds of clues often are helpful in determining more on the words or inscriptions on swords. Getting back to this rapier, it would seem that it has been reaffirmed in Italian context, but the question remains, why the seahorse term? Dmitrys suggestion for a unit of cavalry for San Marino, especially with a sword of such similarity held in that location was well reasoned and well placed. However, again, these kinds of designations are seldom, if ever placed in the fullers of these blades. While the seahorse is of course a nautical theme, its figure and character is likely to be present in other representations and allusions, especially in a heraldic sense. The maritime city states in Italy of course were nautical in primary sense, however they were with armies and presence in the regular parlance as well. The term in the blade fuller remains a mystery but it is interesting trying different ideas to understand what it might mean. As always, strong possibility for the words being an allusion, term or expression intended to suggest the character or quality imbued in the blade. What would really be great would be finding another blade with these words! It seems the sword type itself is pretty well established in Italy by the end of the 15th century, and these type features were used into the early 17th c ****Cerca Trova!***** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th April 2011 at 05:14 PM.

14th October 2014, 04:42 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	example from musee de lármee Attached Images

17th April 2011, 06:12 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Just to add to the ratiocination: It is worthy of note that similar hilt configurations with this kind of pierced openwork in the elements are seen in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, Milan) example #142, shown as from Veneto c.1480-1500. Another two hander #584 c.1603 is seen with similar quadreform pierced pommel and quillons on guard (op. cit.). Veneto is to the west of Venice, and there is a region known as Cavaion Veronese. This is simply worthy of note because of the similarity to the spelling of 'cavaio'. It seems likely that the 'cavaio' spelling is phonetically sounded to the word 'cavallo', which of course in Italian refers to horse. The term cavallo is used describing a number of presumably cavalry or horsemans swords. As is often the case, it seems there is always potential for classical and perhaps even mythological allusion in symbology in weapons with markings, inscriptions and phrases. With the term 'cavaio marino' it does seem to apply more to 'seahorse', as noted with the name of the galley at Lepanto. It is not common however to put the name of an individual, ship or otherwise in the fuller of a sword as far as I am aware. It seemed likely that perhaps heraldic metaphor might come into play with the seahorse in this case, and nothing specific was apparant, however in mythology the sea nymph Thetis, mother of Achilles, is sometimes depicted on a sea horse carrying the arms forged by Vulcan for Achilles. ("Fictitious and Symbolic Creatures in Art", John Vinycomb, 1909). The weapons of Germany and Italy were often closely aligned in these times, and as has been noted, the mans head mark is similar to some of Solingen. The phonetic spelling of cavaio seems to reflect other instances where names or words spuriously applied in Solingen on blades often had spelling or other subtle errors. We know that in Solingen blades were often tailored to certain markets and it is now believed that the names or words in blade fullers may well have been chosen and used to appeal to these markets. For example, the legendary Andrea Ferara name of course was favored in Scotland and was invariably placed on these broadsword blades; Sahagum blades often went to the north countries; Tomas Aiala is on rapier blades for export to Spain and its colonies. Could the 'cavaio marino' carry classical allusion ? and perhaps be considered a 'brand' or blade type to appeal to Italian market? Fanciful ? perhaps, but then sometimes such thinking is fun and at least worth considering.

17th April 2011, 08:00 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just a little note, Jim . It looks as the word inscribed in the blade is actually CAVALO; only Jasper has read it (or spelled it) wrong . Am i correct, Jasper ?