Persian Jambiya

Aurangzeb · 10th July 2005, 05:15 AM

Hello All!

I have finally purchased a Persian 5-finger jambiya. The central blade splits into 3-seperate blades with the central blade having a bulb shaped end and 2 other small tips, one above and one below. It is hand forged and is very well made and is a piece made for using. It is very large for a dagger at 16 1/2 inch from tip of the central blade to the end of the handle. I think it is late 17th. century or early 18th. century. It appears Persian steel ages gracefully ! The pictures make it look so clean! It is actually pitted from age and shows signs of use. It is covered in floral patterns as well as humans in Islamic dress. All the desines are hand chissled in. Hopefully someone can tell me more about this dagger. All I am sure of is that it is Persian in origin. A similar dagger is on page-56 Fig. 4-10 of the book '' Travels For Daggers" by Eiler Robert Cook. Thank you in advance for any help / information that any of you may be able to provide !

Mark..

nechesh · 10th July 2005, 04:09 PM

I am curious. You say this is certainly a blade made for using. I'm not doubting that, but, Use for what? That 3 blade assembly doesn't seem too useful for stabbing and there doesn't appear to be a sharp edge on the blades.
I also wonder what human figures would be doing on an Islamic blade. Doesn't seem in keeping with Islamic laws.

Rivkin · 10th July 2005, 04:23 PM

I think this dagger have already been discussed here. I'm sorry to say, but the conclusion was that while it's made in the Qajar, 19th century style, the blade is most likely a very modern imitation.

P.S. Iran, shia and northern India have very different opinions on sharia than sunni orthodoxy. It's not unusual even to find icons (Mohammed, Ali etc.), which is haram of all haramiyya

.

Rick · 10th July 2005, 04:29 PM

I'm sorry Aurangzeb ,
I'm guessing that this piece is very late 19th-mid 20th C. and meant to be a curio for Westerners on the Grand Tour .

Consider the concept of the blade mechanics ; if the point was made for piercing mail the two rather thin side blades would spread and prevent any sort of deep penetration ; the same effect would also happen with a few layers of fabric .

This dagger may have allegorical or cultural meanings but doubtful that it is a 'user' .

/now , about that copy of Stone's .........

erlikhan · 10th July 2005, 04:43 PM

sorry, but i cant imagine how this can be used to cut or stab.the mid blade with 3 tips make it especially functionless. you would have to apply a force equal to a truck to be able to drive it into flesh and bone,if it doesnt get already deformed and break while you try to do that. Ergonomically useless as a tool. else than this, the decoration on the scabbard is too simple for even a real Kajar period sample. Yes,hand chiselled but very simple and ordinary. Real old 5 finger daggers have hard worked nice samples of iron chiselling art on them. I have one like I mention. I will post its pictures when I find time, but I dont like even mine so much. it doesnt have 3 blades with 5 total tips, but 5 real blades going seperate from each other for many inches, but still I dont feel it is a real weapon. maybe just a fantasy try in past's weaponry fashion.
regards

RSWORD · 10th July 2005, 04:52 PM

I have seen a number of these over the years. They all appear to be Qajar period and made for either ceremonial purposes or later as tourist curios. Quality varies on these things. I have seen a few that were of good quality steel and the blade work was quite well done. However, most fall into the mediocre to poor quality. Imagery on pieces seemed fairly common during the Qajar period. It seems that nobleman and royalty were exempt from strict laws regarding imagery.

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 01:32 AM

Hi all!

I have tested it's ability to pierce cardboard, it is definatly not funtional the only part to pierce was the bulb tip the other two tips blunted the stab into the evil box! But the steel quality is above the tourist pieces in my collection, so I think it is ceremonial and not a tourist sale piece. I have enclosed some close-ups of the art word on it and is not simple but is worn and well decorated. So this is late 19th. century... Seems like a very good appraisal of age. I do have an odd liking to tourist pieces, don't ask why I don't really know!

This is definately one of my favorite daggers either way. To me the decoration on it looks similer to a piece that was on "Oriental Arms.com"

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 03:35 PM

Hi all!

I forgot to say that I read somewhere that these are symbolic of the sword Zulfiqar, I don't know how true this is though.

Mark...

Rivkin · 11th July 2005, 04:39 PM

as I said before, this dagger was already discussed here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=qajar

I don't know if it has anything to do with Zulfakar, but Zulfakar is traditionally a two bladed sword (not three).

Rick · 11th July 2005, 07:25 PM

Aurangzeb,
To see the configuration of a Zulfiqar styled sword .
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001968.html

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 10:38 PM

Hi all!

What is the "grand tour"? Is my dagger Persian or modern Iranian or indian I am confused. Whould the symbols on the handle and sheath of mine help in I.D. of origen? The symbol on the Shaeth and handle look like farsi or arabic to me.

Rick · 11th July 2005, 11:02 PM

The Grand Tour is a reference to a time when wealthy Americans and Europeans traveled around the world on vacation . This was usually done between the late 19thC and the mid 20thC colonial period in Western history .

During the late 19thC there was a great interest in 'Orientalism' in both countries .

Your dagger could have come from or been mfr'd in any number of Islamic countries .
The theme IMO is mainly Persian (Iran) though .

/ now , about that copy of Stone's < nag , nag>

Aurangzeb · 11th July 2005, 11:08 PM

Hi Rick!

Nope, I have notgot a copy of stones yet pay day is Thursday. So should I count this as the first piece in my Persian collection?

Mark...

Rick · 11th July 2005, 11:15 PM

I'll plead the 5th amendment thanks .

Aurangzeb · 12th July 2005, 01:53 AM

Hi Rick!

Since the theme is Persian I have decided to classify it as Persian export piece, sound good? It is still one of my favorite daggers in my collection, even if it is for the export market!

I whould still like to find out what those symbols mean, hopefully one of the other forum members can read it. I am happy it is not Indian.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 12th July 2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurangzeb

Hi Rick!

Since the theme is Persian I have decided to classify it as Persian export piece, sound good? It is still one of my favorite daggers in my collection, even if it is for the export market!

I whould still like to find out what those symbols mean, hopefully one of the other forum members can read it. I am happy it is not Indian.

Mark...

I have made a revalation! After examining many of my Islamic coins dates I belive I have narrowed it down to tweo countries! The one symbol is a 1 and the other is a symbol that only occures in Iran and Afghan calender and number system! It is a type of deformed 3!

erlikhan · 13th July 2005, 12:58 AM

close up views made me think the decorations are not hand chiselling but easier acid-wax process, only interior human and other details being hand carved.any opinions?
here are the pictures of my 5 fingers. hilt,scabbard and the blade real hand chiselled both sides. gold on hilt and scabbard, and gold koftgari on both sides of the blade. tips are strong and nice but still edges are not sharp.

Aurangzeb · 13th July 2005, 02:48 AM

Hi erlikhan!

I have never heard of this process before tell me about it please I am interested. Very nice I like the way the tips are close together on yours, I have to push mine down to get it in it's sheath. Today I was examining the blade iteriors hunting out rust when I noticed the blades have a faint swirly pattern on them, what chould it be? It is hard to take pictures of the iterior parts but I will try later if I feel like getting out of the " comfy cahir".

Mark...

P.s.- I have a Tuareg dagger coming from Ghana is 21 day shipping seem fast or slow boat?

10th July 2005, 05:15 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Persian Jambiya Hello All! I have finally purchased a Persian 5-finger jambiya. The central blade splits into 3-seperate blades with the central blade having a bulb shaped end and 2 other small tips, one above and one below. It is hand forged and is very well made and is a piece made for using. It is very large for a dagger at 16 1/2 inch from tip of the central blade to the end of the handle. I think it is late 17th. century or early 18th. century. It appears Persian steel ages gracefully ! The pictures make it look so clean! It is actually pitted from age and shows signs of use. It is covered in floral patterns as well as humans in Islamic dress. All the desines are hand chissled in. Hopefully someone can tell me more about this dagger. All I am sure of is that it is Persian in origin. A similar dagger is on page-56 Fig. 4-10 of the book '' Travels For Daggers" by Eiler Robert Cook. Thank you in advance for any help / information that any of you may be able to provide ! Mark.. Attached Images Last edited by Aurangzeb; 10th July 2005 at 06:34 AM.

10th July 2005, 04:29 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Cool Looking I'm sorry Aurangzeb , I'm guessing that this piece is very late 19th-mid 20th C. and meant to be a curio for Westerners on the Grand Tour . Consider the concept of the blade mechanics ; if the point was made for piercing mail the two rather thin side blades would spread and prevent any sort of deep penetration ; the same effect would also happen with a few layers of fabric . This dagger may have allegorical or cultural meanings but doubtful that it is a 'user' . /now , about that copy of Stone's .........

10th July 2005, 04:43 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	sorry, but i cant imagine how this can be used to cut or stab.the mid blade with 3 tips make it especially functionless. you would have to apply a force equal to a truck to be able to drive it into flesh and bone,if it doesnt get already deformed and break while you try to do that. Ergonomically useless as a tool. else than this, the decoration on the scabbard is too simple for even a real Kajar period sample. Yes,hand chiselled but very simple and ordinary. Real old 5 finger daggers have hard worked nice samples of iron chiselling art on them. I have one like I mention. I will post its pictures when I find time, but I dont like even mine so much. it doesnt have 3 blades with 5 total tips, but 5 real blades going seperate from each other for many inches, but still I dont feel it is a real weapon. maybe just a fantasy try in past's weaponry fashion. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 11th July 2005 at 10:51 AM.

11th July 2005, 01:32 AM	#7
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! I have tested it's ability to pierce cardboard, it is definatly not funtional the only part to pierce was the bulb tip the other two tips blunted the stab into the evil box! But the steel quality is above the tourist pieces in my collection, so I think it is ceremonial and not a tourist sale piece. I have enclosed some close-ups of the art word on it and is not simple but is worn and well decorated. So this is late 19th. century... Seems like a very good appraisal of age. I do have an odd liking to tourist pieces, don't ask why I don't really know! This is definately one of my favorite daggers either way. To me the decoration on it looks similer to a piece that was on "Oriental Arms.com" Attached Images Last edited by Aurangzeb; 11th July 2005 at 01:35 AM. Reason: Duplicate posted picture

11th July 2005, 07:25 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Follow this link Aurangzeb, To see the configuration of a Zulfiqar styled sword . http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001968.html

10th July 2005, 04:09 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I am curious. You say this is certainly a blade made for using. I'm not doubting that, but, Use for what? That 3 blade assembly doesn't seem too useful for stabbing and there doesn't appear to be a sharp edge on the blades. I also wonder what human figures would be doing on an Islamic blade. Doesn't seem in keeping with Islamic laws.

10th July 2005, 04:23 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think this dagger have already been discussed here. I'm sorry to say, but the conclusion was that while it's made in the Qajar, 19th century style, the blade is most likely a very modern imitation. P.S. Iran, shia and northern India have very different opinions on sharia than sunni orthodoxy. It's not unusual even to find icons (Mohammed, Ali etc.), which is haram of all haramiyya .

10th July 2005, 04:52 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I have seen a number of these over the years. They all appear to be Qajar period and made for either ceremonial purposes or later as tourist curios. Quality varies on these things. I have seen a few that were of good quality steel and the blade work was quite well done. However, most fall into the mediocre to poor quality. Imagery on pieces seemed fairly common during the Qajar period. It seems that nobleman and royalty were exempt from strict laws regarding imagery.

11th July 2005, 03:35 PM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! I forgot to say that I read somewhere that these are symbolic of the sword Zulfiqar, I don't know how true this is though. Mark...

11th July 2005, 04:39 PM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	as I said before, this dagger was already discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=qajar I don't know if it has anything to do with Zulfakar, but Zulfakar is traditionally a two bladed sword (not three).

11th July 2005, 10:38 PM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! What is the "grand tour"? Is my dagger Persian or modern Iranian or indian I am confused. Whould the symbols on the handle and sheath of mine help in I.D. of origen? The symbol on the Shaeth and handle look like farsi or arabic to me.

11th July 2005, 11:02 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The Grand Tour is a reference to a time when wealthy Americans and Europeans traveled around the world on vacation . This was usually done between the late 19thC and the mid 20thC colonial period in Western history . During the late 19thC there was a great interest in 'Orientalism' in both countries . Your dagger could have come from or been mfr'd in any number of Islamic countries . The theme IMO is mainly Persian (Iran) though . / now , about that copy of Stone's < nag , nag>

11th July 2005, 11:08 PM	#13
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Rick! Nope, I have notgot a copy of stones yet pay day is Thursday. So should I count this as the first piece in my Persian collection? Mark...

11th July 2005, 11:15 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'll plead the 5th amendment thanks .

12th July 2005, 01:53 AM	#15
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Rick! Since the theme is Persian I have decided to classify it as Persian export piece, sound good? It is still one of my favorite daggers in my collection, even if it is for the export market! I whould still like to find out what those symbols mean, hopefully one of the other forum members can read it. I am happy it is not Indian. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 12th July 2005 at 02:03 AM.

13th July 2005, 12:58 AM	#17
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	close up views made me think the decorations are not hand chiselling but easier acid-wax process, only interior human and other details being hand carved.any opinions? here are the pictures of my 5 fingers. hilt,scabbard and the blade real hand chiselled both sides. gold on hilt and scabbard, and gold koftgari on both sides of the blade. tips are strong and nice but still edges are not sharp. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 13th July 2005 at 01:19 AM.

13th July 2005, 02:48 AM	#18
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi erlikhan! I have never heard of this process before tell me about it please I am interested. Very nice I like the way the tips are close together on yours, I have to push mine down to get it in it's sheath. Today I was examining the blade iteriors hunting out rust when I noticed the blades have a faint swirly pattern on them, what chould it be? It is hard to take pictures of the iterior parts but I will try later if I feel like getting out of the " comfy cahir". Mark... P.s.- I have a Tuareg dagger coming from Ghana is 21 day shipping seem fast or slow boat? Last edited by Aurangzeb; 13th July 2005 at 02:59 AM.