Faca De Ponta.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Awesome Gene!!

Thanks for bringing to light aspects of knives I have seen but never fully understood!! Great reference research that I can imagine wasn't easy to find.

Outstanding!!

Gav

Thank you Gav.

As you can see from the online translation, my Portugese is nonexistant.
That certainly doesn't help.

There are still aspects of them that need clarification.
For example:

These obviously come in various 'types' and as this information isn't available in one place here' I'm going to try for a basic overview here in one place for clarity.

You have the usually smaller semi-familiar 'national knife/souvenier' types, often with plated blades and mottos etched onto them etc.
These come in at least two 'forms' with crossguard and usually plated blade, and guardless.
Here is one of our own members blades (was Nandos, think he sold it). The mottos vary, I've also seen 'The High Life' (in English!).



Here is one belonging to our own kronckew. looks to be of good quality. Notice that it is of more traditional form with no guard etc.



Then there are the older ones with imported blades of good quality and slightly larger 'dagger' size.
For this I (again) present mine (next to a kitchen knife for scale).
My research and gut feeling is that it dates to the late 19th or early 20th. Certainly I can't see it being any later than mid 1930s.



There are also older ones of 'dagger' size, but with a more 'Brazilian' handmade look to them. These have a range of blades like Gaucho knives from Argentina etc. Everything from imported blades, to locally made and reused sabre sections. Different qualities, all rather attractive.




Finally, you get these giant 2ft (and in Lampaio's case longer) versions.
Here again, next to the smaller version to show just how huge it is!



So, the question is, who used what?
Are the giants exclusive to the outlaws?

[Atlantia]

It's said that the distinctive banding on the hilts of some of these daggers was inspired by the giant brazilian millipedes known as 'embuá' (lice snake)

[Atlantia]

There muct be Brazilian members who can help us out with more detail?

Or even just Portugese speakers?

Lurkers too! If you can add to our knowledge then feel free to email me at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So, the question is, who used what?
Are the giants exclusive to the outlaws?

First, a big thank you for publishing all this terrific work on a very little known subject.

I think that to answer to your question we must first look into the agricultural and slaughtering/butchering practices of the region. Given the by the then strong proliferation of firearms, these huge knives must have had some utilitarian application; I read somewhere that they were known not as faca de ponta, rather as fish butchering knives, but I haven't had the time to follow this up.

Also, as blacklacrau said, they probably were status symbols too, much like officers swords are in modern times. I think it is fair to say that the absence of a handguard suggests that these were not intended for serious fighting, rather to facilitate carriage. The gaucho saddle facons often had full size sword blades but rarely a handguard; Now why would a weapon be stripped of such a valuable feature? IMHO because ease of carriage was the first concern and they were not intended to be weapons, rather slaughtering tools. In contrast, the shorter and nimbler fighting grade facons were often fitted with cross guards.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gene,



First, a big thank you for publishing all this terrific work on a very little known subject.

I think that to answer to your question we must first look into the agricultural and slaughtering/butchering practices of the region. Given the by the then strong proliferation of firearms, these huge knives must have had some utilitarian application; I read somewhere that they were known not as faca de ponta, rather as fish butchering knives, but I haven't had the time to follow this up.

Also, as blacklacrau said, they probably were status symbols too, much like officers swords are in modern times. I think it is fair to say that the absence of a handguard suggests that these were not intended for serious fighting, rather to facilitate carriage. The gaucho saddle facons often had full size sword blades but rarely a handguard; Now why would a weapon be stripped of such a valuable feature? IMHO because ease of carriage was the first concern and they were not intended to be weapons, rather slaughtering tools. In contrast, the shorter and nimbler fighting grade facons were often fitted with cross guards.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,

You're welcome. I've really only 'borrowed' from the work of others and tried to put it all into one place. The difficulty is wading through the mountain of inormation about the outlaws etc and trying to find snippets of info or pictures showing the knives.

Here are a couple of the better pictures. I've digitally cleaned them slightly.

[Atlantia]

Hi Chris,

Further to your observations above.
It does seem that a knife was the preferred method of killing cattle, and that this was 'extended' to be the method of dispatch of choice for 'executions'.

Interestingly (as you point out), wiki in speaking about the Bandits weapons says:
"They also made famous a thin, long, and very sharp knife called a "peixeira", a fish-cleaning knife, used mostly to torture or cut the throats of their victims."

A search of google images using 'peixeira' returns some rather upsetting images. I do not recommend it!

Your point about the guards is an excellent observation and I think realistically puts to bed any notion that these guardless examples regardless of size were meant to be routinely used in 'combat' against an armed opponent. Especially in a time where firearms were commonplace.

As is the point about them denoting status. Was there a 'cut off point' where certain sizes would be specific to certain groups?

For instance, if we take this example:

It feels like something that a well dressed chap in a'frontier town' or other urban situation might carry.

These on the other hand:

Look more like they would be at home in a gauchos belt and could be a working tool. While of course showing a noticable range of sizes. If these examples are 'gaucho' knives, do even they denote status with their size?

Which takes us to the very large examples.
I can't find any pictures of Brazilian gauchos with knives that size, only the bandits.
Nor can I find any pictures of examples that are not captioned as belonging to bandits.
Thats not any kind of proof of course, but several sites do talk about the distinctive (rather eccentric) clothing and 'style'.

It's possible as we've just discussed, that there is a different name, and they are not actually 'faca de ponta'?

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Many of the elements of the history of the Bandits that I have reproduced come from this resource:
http://lampiaoaceso.blogspot.com/

Free to reuse as long as credited.
Great site if anyone wants to have a look

[Brezolin]

Hello guys!

Well, I have some things to say about these knives!

Primeiramente.Digite um texto ou endereço de um site ou traduza um documento.
CancelarTradução do português para inglês

First, I wanted to explain that there were no major bladesmiths industries in northeastern Brazil! Instead, we had many small shops (known as a "tenda de ferreiro"), shops that besides these knives were all blacksmithing services. For this reason, it is difficult to establish a fixed pattern of knives in the Northeast, each bladesmhit print your presonalidade their knives.

The knives were done from recycled steel of railroad, broken swords, tools obsolete... The cables were prepared in bovine horn, nobles wood, bone, ivory, silver, germain silver, nickel and some of the finest inlaid with gold.

But it was only the tip of knives that were produced in the northeast of Brazil. Other models were made as the "peixeira", "punhal língua de peba", "Parnaíba" (Gene, probably his great knife is a Parnaíba) e "canindé"...

The "peixeira" was a knife commonly used in the kitchen. Perhaps the one that was produced on a large scale, blade with great width and cable splices. Much like knives "carneadeiras" of gauchos.

The "Canindé", also known as Facão (machete) Canindé, is a larger version of the "Peixera" with great width and blade length close to 15/18". Commonly used by rural people for pastoral activities.

The "Xerenga" is not a specific type of knife, but a designation of small knives, or worthless and refinement.

The "língua de peba" (Language of armadillo.) was a weapon par excellence. Its blade is triangular cross section (similar to the language of the armadillo peba - where inherits its name), without grinding (?), only with a very sharp tip used to pierce, kill.

"Parnaíba" the knives were of great dimensions, the name comes from the city of Parnaíba - which was probably the beginning of manufacturing. For its exaggerated size was also known as "Faca de arrasto" (drag knife?) by the time it took to get out of the sheath.

Many other information about these knives that will with time posting!

Best regards

Brezolin

[DaveA]

I have some professional colleagues in Brazil. I don't feel I can prevail upon them to translate the full story, but if there important sections then please reply here or PM me. I'll post any translation(s) I receive back from them. Two or three paragraphs. That way I can parcel out the work and not be an imposition on their time.

Best,

Dave A.

[Gavin Nugent]

One from the depths of time....Gene, how'd you go with imput from other readers? Any contact?

Gav