Thai Kastane

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

To be clearer, and following Zonneveld, Peudeueng would be correct and when referring to his notation of refer to Pedang, Pedang type 1 with the basket type guard is my thoughts as it shares the same form, langet and lugs at the base of the blade, along with the same profile, all that lacks is the spike in leu of the carved head pommel.

Gav

Well, i don't quite see exactly where Zonneveld states "Peudeueng" as "correct". He simply states that it is another word for pedang, of which there are numerous varieties. I think you are probably right that this sword blade comes very close to Zonnefeld's classification of a "Pedang type 1", but this is a purely Western classification. It is quite possible, of course, that the Sumatran did/does not distinguish name wise between Pedang I, II, and III, but Zonnefeld then goes on to give a long list of "pedang this" and "pedang thats" which seem to imply that very specific names exist for all these very different forms of swords do exist.
I don't know that the name i suggested above is correct either, but tagging on "peusangan" or "pasangan" i believe at least describes it as a curved sword blade.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't quite see exactly where Zonneveld states "Peudeueng" as "correct". He simply states that it is another word for pedang, of which there are numerous varieties. I think you are probably right that this sword blade comes very close to Zonnefeld's classification of a "Pedang type 1", but this is a purely Western classification. It is quite possible, of course, that the Sumatran did/does not distinguish name wise between Pedang I, II, and III, but Zonnefeld then goes on to give a long list of "pedang this" and "pedang thats" which seem to imply that very specific names exist for all these very different forms of swords do exist.
I don't know that the name i suggested above is correct either, but tagging on "peusangan" or "pasangan" i believe at least describes it as a curved sword blade.

Purely as a point of reference;

Peudeueng was in the first instance correct as a type/category of this sabre in my opinion.
It offers in my opinion a Sumatran regional base for what I felt was overlooked in the first instance many years ago.

From your elaborating Sumatran sabre type, Peudeueng Peusangan is a different type (blade and hilt when compared to the subject matter in question), hence my use of the word Peudeueng as being 'correct' in my context not Zonneveld's context as you have noted, nothing more.

Zonneveld was only referenced to elaborate that Peudeueng is of this type in question.

Refer Zonneveld as the easist point of reference that has at least classifications to elaborate my initial naming and presto Peusangan leads to Pedang type 1 is of this form as you can see.

You are correct that this is westernised and that native Sumatrans now or of the day would not choose between Pedang type 1,2 or 3 and rather would have used most likely just the word Peudeueng to cover all 'types'....hence my initial naming.

Native or westernised aside, isn't it nice to able to clasify a sword type in context with the hilt which is is a major point of intrigue within the post....

The simplicity of the term Peudeueng stands in my opinion and that the sword in question is Sumatran, Zonneveld reference only used to help answer your reply and to help others identify with the complete shape of the sabre in question from tip to tip in context.

[Nathaniel]

Ariel,

Thanks for sharing this interesting piece. Curious labeling. I agree with the Dha-Fathers, Nothing Thai in decoration or style. I agree with Rick, that the handle reminds me of Southern India work. Can't really comment otherwise, but enjoying the discussion

[David]

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

A well written and honest approach with references well noted that he has drawn from. I know and respect Dominique's on going work too. Well noted in the opening passage is that these weapons and the Chinese reference opens plausability to the hilt in the image Ariel posted could be from Vietnam as it was country under Chinese influence and rule.

Since this study was made available on the net quite some time back, I have not seen it ammended in any way as was expressed.
Is Mr Crosby available to delve further? I know I have some further questions since obtaining and dispersing the Kelling Hall collection, one unfortunately Mr Zonneveld was unable to help with further direction thanks to communications via Mr Rogers.

As Mr Crosby notes in many places within the text, 'Peudeueng' is the term for all swords from the region curved or straight. Further reference with regards to hilt type along with curved or straight blade and the many regional locations is noted and to complete is a monumnental work.
Within the text provided in the link and without further clear definition the Pasangan or other names is only noted as I quote 'A review of the literature seems to divide', obviously at the time of writing, not definative.

Of interest to me is the blade profile of these weapons, in particular the tips and fuller construction and where the basket hilt varients so far to my eyes have a sabre type hatchet tip. It was nice to see it touched on in these work too.

[David]

I know that Mr. Crosby used to post regularly on SFI, but i haven't noticed any posts by him recently over there.

[kai]

Well, John is a forum member here as well. Hope he'll chime in when online again.

However, I don't see any hint which would help to place this sword anywhere throughout the SEA archipelago: IMHO the workmanship doesn't look like Aceh/Sumatra nor Negara at all; also the blade would need to be an imported example (so no help in placing it).

I'm not positive but I also don't see a good match with Viet fittings. Any pics, Gav? The Thai crowd seems also confident that this is not from their area. Not any votes for Khmer/Lao/Burmese, too?

At the moment, I'm with Rick that S India warrants some more research. Any input from those well-versed in that area?

Regards,
Kai