Keris for comment.

Atlantia · 6th March 2011, 06:21 PM

I picked up this Keris in a deal and it seems to have good age and an intersting iron mount.
Can any of you enlighten me, as these are rather a mytery to me.
Age? Any information really. Does it need an etch? Can anyone show me what it 'should' look like?

Thanks
gene

Gustav · 6th March 2011, 06:49 PM

This once was an anak-alang of very high quality, peninsular, probably Pattani.

To me unusual seems the very strong well forged central rib. Unfortunately some damage to greneng, which also was well made, somewhat to classical for a peninsular blade. Sumatran influence?

Somewhat unusual also the way Tikel Alis is "suggested". Normally there is a more or less deep one (often more), or nothing at all.

Pendokok is a form associated with Pattani. Could it be silver? Would be a little bit strange to have an iron pendokok for piece of such quality.

Sampir and hilt are very well done, the sampir wood is beautiful with it's two coloured grain.

Atlantia · 6th March 2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

This once was an anak-alang of very high quality, peninsular, probably Pattani.

To me unusual seems the very strong well forged central rib. Unfortunately some damage to greneng, which also was well made, somewhat to classical for a peninsular blade. Sumatran influence?

Somewhat unusual also the way Tikel Alis is "suggested". Normally there is a more or less deep one (often more), or nothing at all.

Pendokok is a form associated with Pattani. Could it be silver? Would be a little bit strange to have an iron pendokok for such piece of such quality.

Sampir and hilt are very well done, the sampir wood is beautiful with it's two coloured grain.

Hi Gustav,

Thank you for the help. Can I sak, what makes this a high quality example?
Any ideas what the date would be and should it be etched?

Many Thanks
Gene

David · 6th March 2011, 07:25 PM

Nice blade, but it does not have the profile and features that i would normally expect to see on a anak-alang, so i would question that assessment.
The pendokok might well be dirty silver. Did you test with a magnet to determine that it was iron? Unfortunate that it is damaged so much however.
If you plan to restore you will want to create a new "toe" for the sheath and get a new pendokok. I would image that a nice piece of blade horn would work well here.
AFAIK peninsula blades are not normally stained, but i would say this blade certainly should be cleaned. However, i am not convinced that this keris isn't of Sumatran origin, in which case a staining might be in order.

Gustav · 6th March 2011, 07:38 PM

David, may I ask you, which features of a "typical" anak alang this keris is lacking?

Also it seems to me, there are genuine old Malay blades, which are originally stained, including also blades with no pamor.

Sajen · 6th March 2011, 08:10 PM

Hello Gene,

I would call this nice keris Anak Alang as well with unusual blade profile. I don't want to appoint it to Sumatra or Peninsula since I am unsure from where it is. The tip of the sheath have to look like the example I show from the profile. A piece of black horn like David suggested would look nice but dark wood would be ok as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 6th March 2011, 08:40 PM

As I understand, more angularly shaped tip (like Sajen's example) would more tend to Peninsula, more rounded to Sumatra.

Atlantia · 6th March 2011, 08:45 PM

Ah gentlemen, I see there is not a completely simple answer to my questions...

Can anyone show me how the blade should look?
No estimates of age?

Detlef,
I'm actaully working with black buffalo horn at the moment, so might be able to do that

Gustav · 6th March 2011, 09:12 PM

Gene, if you could get the surface of blade back to this quality (etch or not to etch is your decision), it would be ideal. You should consider well if it is possible at all without remowing to much material.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=keris+panjang

About age: probably all that you would hear about it were 19. cent. It seems, some greater precision (if it isn't a piece with provenance) is not possible.

David · 6th March 2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, may I ask you, which features of a "typical" anak alang this keris is lacking?

Also it seems to me, there are genuine old Malay blades, which are originally stained, including also blades with no pamor.

Frankly Gustav, i don't believe i have ever seen a anak alang with a center ridge (ada-ada) down the blade like this. To my understanding the profile of this dhapur looks more like this blade that Big G posted some time back. Note the profile, the thinner "waist" as it approaches the base of the blade, the "C" indentation in the gandik.
Whether or not peninsula blades are stained has been an unanswered debate on this forum for some time. I would love to hear something more definite about what the actual traditions are, but have yet to see anything i would call conclusive.

Rick · 6th March 2011, 10:05 PM

Anak alang ; no ?

David · 6th March 2011, 10:12 PM

OK, maybe i have seen one with a center ridge.

Still, i am uncertain what features of Atlantia's qualify it as an anak alang. Perhaps someone with more experience with these blades could list the necessary features for this dhapur.

Gustav · 6th March 2011, 10:28 PM

The problem is, if we are moving outside from Javanese Keraton classification system, there are no such strong criteria for Dhapur. Panjang and similar blades of different size are most probably originated outside of Java, so there are no stronger rules used. I am not convinced, we can call anak-alang a dhapur at all.

This is a much to much for me and probably also for this thread, yet there are in general Panjang's and related blades with and without central ridge. Why, when and where - please ask more experienced members.

David · 6th March 2011, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The problem is, if we are moving outside from Javanese Keraton classification system, there are no such strong criteria for Dhapur. Panjang and similar blades of different size are most probably originated outside of Java, so there are no stronger rules used. I am not convinced, we can call anak-alang a dhapur at all.

This is a much to much for me and probably also for this thread, yet there are in general Panjang's and related blades with and without central ridge. Why, when and where - please ask more experienced members.

I use the term "dhapur" for want of a better word. These blades (panjang, anak alang) do not originate in Jawa at all AFAIK so Javanese terminology is, of course, not quite correct. Perhaps "classification" would be a better term. Though obviously we do have names for various type of blades that exist outside of Jawa. The rules might be looser, but certainly there must be some criteria, otherwise why do we call it one thing or another? My collecting experience is much more centered on Jawa/Bali/Madura, though i do have quite a few blades from Peninsula/Sumatra/Sulawesi. Yet admittedly i understand these less. So yes please, would someone who has more experience with these blades please describe the criteria more specifically?

Gustav · 8th March 2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Frankly Gustav, i don't believe i have ever seen a anak alang with a center ridge (ada-ada) down the blade like this. To my understanding the profile of this dhapur looks more like this blade that Big G posted some time back. Note the profile, the thinner "waist" as it approaches the base of the blade, the "C" indentation in the gandik.
Whether or not peninsula blades are stained has been an unanswered debate on this forum for some time. I would love to hear something more definite about what the actual traditions are, but have yet to see anything i would call conclusive.

Okay, Alam Shah, Blu Erf and Dave Henkel are probably to busy. Just for refreshing this thread.

Regarding the staining of Peninsular blades: there is an article of I.H. Evans, "Notes on the manufacture of damascened spear and knife blades in Malay states", an eyewitness report from 1913, about forging, tempering and etching blades in a village in Perak.

It seams to be self-evident, blades with elaborated pamor, which are occuring in Peninsula, would be stained. The question seems to be, have also the polished blades made from more homogenous material been stained?

The unique Tajong blade from Museum für Völkerkunde Basel, there from about 1920, still has a black-blue staining, which appears to be original.

About shape of blade: Panjang and Panjang-related blades with central ridge don't have a thinner "waist", it is more or less suggested with help of slightly narrowing fullers in this place. On blade in question the narrowing of fullers is pretty distinct.

There are Panjang blades without this "C" indentation (which to me seems something like overinterpreted Tikel Alis), just a plain Gandhik. The blade in question even HAS a notch at this place.

When we call Rick's blade an Anak Alang, what is the real problem with this one? When, even more, it seems to be coming in an original Saribulan Sarung, which is very appropriate for this kind of blades?

Another blade of similar size with a middle ridge (and etched) from Forum Archives:

BluErf · 8th March 2011, 02:33 PM

A high grade keris indeed. I've never seen blades like this again. Dave says this keris is Pattani.

The pendoko is the first thing that I identified as clearly N. Malayan. The sheath also looked N. Malayan. But I got stuck trying to identify the blade.

David · 9th March 2011, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Okay, Alam Shah, Blu Erf and Dave Henkel are probably to busy. Just for refreshing this thread.

Regarding the staining of Peninsular blades: there is an article of I.H. Evans, "Notes on the manufacture of damascened spear and knife blades in Malay states", an eyewitness report from 1913, about forging, tempering and etching blades in a village in Perak.

It seams to be self-evident, blades with elaborated pamor, which are occuring in Peninsula, would be stained. The question seems to be, have also the polished blades made from more homogenous material been stained?

The unique Tajong blade from Museum für Völkerkunde Basel, there from about 1920, still has a black-blue staining, which appears to be original.

About shape of blade: Panjang and Panjang-related blades with central ridge don't have a thinner "waist", it is more or less suggested with help of slightly narrowing fullers in this place. On blade in question the narrowing of fullers is pretty distinct.

There are Panjang blades without this "C" indentation (which to me seems something like overinterpreted Tikel Alis), just a plain Gandhik. The blade in question even HAS a notch at this place.

When we call Rick's blade an Anak Alang, what is the real problem with this one? When, even more, it seems to be coming in an original Saribulan Sarung, which is very appropriate for this kind of blades?

Another blade of similar size with a middle ridge (and etched) from Forum Archives:

Gustav, given that i already conceded that i was mistaken and that i had seen anak alang blades with a center ridge (Rick's being one) i am uncertain as to why you have quoted the above passage of mine to comment on and debate. I am not in debate here or drawing any conclusions. I have merely called the subject into question. I would still like to see a list of features that distinguish a blade as anak alang, just as a general rule. I have nothing to prove in this argument, i am just seeking information and qualifications.
In regards to staining these blades (Peninsula) i never stated that it wasn't done, simply that it is a matter of debate. I don't believe that anything in this debate is "self-evident" and it seems that the great majority of Peninsula blade do not in fact have elaborate pamors. To me the debate still seems open, though i must say that if i had such a keris with an elaborate pamor it would be my personal inclination to stain it. However this says nothing of traditional practices. I personally take no sides in this debate.

DAHenkel · 11th March 2011, 04:54 AM

As Kai Wee mentioned I have discussed this blade with him and in my opinion this blade is definitely a Pattani piece. however, the defining characteristic is not the medial spine but rather the greneng - which is textbook Pattani. The dress is also. BTW the pendokok is tin and given the poorish fit and mismatch in quality with the rest of the piece, is probably a later replacement. The original was most likely a much nicer one in silver or perhaps even gold that was sold off. A nice example and definitely not a run of the mill piece.

DAHenkel · 11th March 2011, 04:57 AM

Also, the blade you posted in post #15 is in my collection. Bought in Riau (Tg. Pinang) some years back - and probably from there - as a bare blade with the pendokok but no sheath or hilt. Note the difference in the greneng...

6th March 2011, 06:49 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	This once was an anak-alang of very high quality, peninsular, probably Pattani. To me unusual seems the very strong well forged central rib. Unfortunately some damage to greneng, which also was well made, somewhat to classical for a peninsular blade. Sumatran influence? Somewhat unusual also the way Tikel Alis is "suggested". Normally there is a more or less deep one (often more), or nothing at all. Pendokok is a form associated with Pattani. Could it be silver? Would be a little bit strange to have an iron pendokok for piece of such quality. Sampir and hilt are very well done, the sampir wood is beautiful with it's two coloured grain. Last edited by Gustav; 6th March 2011 at 07:08 PM.

6th March 2011, 08:10 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Gene, I would call this nice keris Anak Alang as well with unusual blade profile. I don't want to appoint it to Sumatra or Peninsula since I am unsure from where it is. The tip of the sheath have to look like the example I show from the profile. A piece of black horn like David suggested would look nice but dark wood would be ok as well. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th March 2011, 09:12 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	Gene, if you could get the surface of blade back to this quality (etch or not to etch is your decision), it would be ideal. You should consider well if it is possible at all without remowing to much material. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=keris+panjang About age: probably all that you would hear about it were 19. cent. It seems, some greater precision (if it isn't a piece with provenance) is not possible. Last edited by Gustav; 6th March 2011 at 09:27 PM.

6th March 2011, 10:05 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Anak alang ; no ? Attached Images

6th March 2011, 06:21 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Keris for comment. I picked up this Keris in a deal and it seems to have good age and an intersting iron mount. Can any of you enlighten me, as these are rather a mytery to me. Age? Any information really. Does it need an etch? Can anyone show me what it 'should' look like? Thanks gene

6th March 2011, 07:25 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Nice blade, but it does not have the profile and features that i would normally expect to see on a anak-alang, so i would question that assessment. The pendokok might well be dirty silver. Did you test with a magnet to determine that it was iron? Unfortunate that it is damaged so much however. If you plan to restore you will want to create a new "toe" for the sheath and get a new pendokok. I would image that a nice piece of blade horn would work well here. AFAIK peninsula blades are not normally stained, but i would say this blade certainly should be cleaned. However, i am not convinced that this keris isn't of Sumatran origin, in which case a staining might be in order.

6th March 2011, 07:38 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	David, may I ask you, which features of a "typical" anak alang this keris is lacking? Also it seems to me, there are genuine old Malay blades, which are originally stained, including also blades with no pamor.

6th March 2011, 08:40 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	As I understand, more angularly shaped tip (like Sajen's example) would more tend to Peninsula, more rounded to Sumatra.

6th March 2011, 08:45 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Ah gentlemen, I see there is not a completely simple answer to my questions... Can anyone show me how the blade should look? No estimates of age? Detlef, I'm actaully working with black buffalo horn at the moment, so might be able to do that

6th March 2011, 10:12 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	OK, maybe i have seen one with a center ridge. Still, i am uncertain what features of Atlantia's qualify it as an anak alang. Perhaps someone with more experience with these blades could list the necessary features for this dhapur.

6th March 2011, 10:28 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	The problem is, if we are moving outside from Javanese Keraton classification system, there are no such strong criteria for Dhapur. Panjang and similar blades of different size are most probably originated outside of Java, so there are no stronger rules used. I am not convinced, we can call anak-alang a dhapur at all. This is a much to much for me and probably also for this thread, yet there are in general Panjang's and related blades with and without central ridge. Why, when and where - please ask more experienced members.

8th March 2011, 02:33 PM	#16
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A high grade keris indeed. I've never seen blades like this again. Dave says this keris is Pattani. The pendoko is the first thing that I identified as clearly N. Malayan. The sheath also looked N. Malayan. But I got stuck trying to identify the blade.

11th March 2011, 04:54 AM	#18
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	As Kai Wee mentioned I have discussed this blade with him and in my opinion this blade is definitely a Pattani piece. however, the defining characteristic is not the medial spine but rather the greneng - which is textbook Pattani. The dress is also. BTW the pendokok is tin and given the poorish fit and mismatch in quality with the rest of the piece, is probably a later replacement. The original was most likely a much nicer one in silver or perhaps even gold that was sold off. A nice example and definitely not a run of the mill piece.

11th March 2011, 04:57 AM	#19
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Also, the blade you posted in post #15 is in my collection. Bought in Riau (Tg. Pinang) some years back - and probably from there - as a bare blade with the pendokok but no sheath or hilt. Note the difference in the greneng...