Pandai Saras Luk 9

BluErf · 22nd February 2011, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hi Blu Erf,

thank you

I also thought about the thicker gonjo, and belalai gajah is probably not so delicat as the most from Pattani, as I understand. Could this be a hint to a later age dating?

The luk style is what seems to be more Pattani to me.

Is hilt assignation as from Pattani becouse of the elongated body?

Hi Gustav,

I don't know why I didn't see this post of yours. As to the use of the features to give an estimate of age, I must admit that I can't do it. Very often, I do it based on look and feel, and I know it is highly inaccurate given that a well-cared old blade can look 'newer' than a poorly-maintained new blade.

Pattani luks are 'awkward', not sweet and sensuous like Terengganu kerises with luks.

The hilt's longer head, angle of the head, and the relatively larger buah pinang base suggests Pattani origin.

Gustav · 8th May 2015, 09:28 PM

Afters years of owning this keris I suppose now, the blade and at least the sheath are coming from Kedah. The indicators are blade style, especially Gandhik/Belalai Gajah, and the missing, yet clearly elongated Buntut.

rasdan · 9th May 2015, 12:32 PM

Hi Gustav, congratulations on the new keris. Unfortunately I know nothing about this type of keris apart that is frequently reffered to as Pandai Saras. Perhaps it is part of sinengker knowledge in the Malay keris world.

Can somebody enlighten us here on (1) the difference between a Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah (or from any other place) and (2) how the difference/characteristics are attributed to the places? Features or combination of features that when present, we say this definitely from say, Kedah - because 90% of keris from kedah have this characteristics - for example.

Gustav · 9th May 2015, 01:16 PM

Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these.

As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras.

More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style.

The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.

rasdan · 10th May 2015, 03:26 PM

Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this.

If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic.

I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too..

As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting.

Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris.

Gustav · 10th May 2015, 04:23 PM

Rasdan, thank you very much for the picture. There are similarities indeed, yet becouse of the deep Jenggot it looks like a blade from Narathiwat.

Attached the Sorsoran of a Keris, which is provenanced from Kedah. It isn't, of course, a Pandai Saras (there is no Ada-Ada, the cross section is hexagonal).

The Buntut of The PS Luk 9 is actually missing, the other picture is showing a Sulawesi sheath. 2011 I didn't know nothing about Buntut forms from Kedah, so this elongated Buntut was my only possibility to guess.

Like you, I also think, there are so much different features, which originaly could be distinctive for some talented smiths. There surely was an immense intermingling of influences, somewhere is a good post of DAHenkel about that. Clear archetypical forms are rare, perhaps almost impossible, and I feel at the moment, Kedah is bladewise especially "eclectical" - a lot of blade styles and mixing of elements from different locations.

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2015, 09:34 PM

Peninsula keris are not really my thing, but some of the content in this thread does interest me sufficiently for me to raise some questions.

When the term Pandai Saras , or Pandai Mamat, or Pandai Somebodyelse is used, does that mean that for an authority on Peninsula keris, that the name given to the keris identifies the maker, or is it the name of a style?

If it is the name of a style, can that style be attributed to a particular span of time?

When making the decision to name a keris as Pandai Somethingorother, what indicators are taken into consideration?

10th May 2015, 03:26 PM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this. If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic. I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too.. As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting. Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris. Attached Images

10th May 2015, 04:23 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Rasdan, thank you very much for the picture. There are similarities indeed, yet becouse of the deep Jenggot it looks like a blade from Narathiwat. Attached the Sorsoran of a Keris, which is provenanced from Kedah. It isn't, of course, a Pandai Saras (there is no Ada-Ada, the cross section is hexagonal). The Buntut of The PS Luk 9 is actually missing, the other picture is showing a Sulawesi sheath. 2011 I didn't know nothing about Buntut forms from Kedah, so this elongated Buntut was my only possibility to guess. Like you, I also think, there are so much different features, which originaly could be distinctive for some talented smiths. There surely was an immense intermingling of influences, somewhere is a good post of DAHenkel about that. Clear archetypical forms are rare, perhaps almost impossible, and I feel at the moment, Kedah is bladewise especially "eclectical" - a lot of blade styles and mixing of elements from different locations. Attached Images

8th May 2015, 09:28 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Afters years of owning this keris I suppose now, the blade and at least the sheath are coming from Kedah. The indicators are blade style, especially Gandhik/Belalai Gajah, and the missing, yet clearly elongated Buntut.

9th May 2015, 12:32 PM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Gustav, congratulations on the new keris. Unfortunately I know nothing about this type of keris apart that is frequently reffered to as Pandai Saras. Perhaps it is part of sinengker knowledge in the Malay keris world. Can somebody enlighten us here on (1) the difference between a Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah (or from any other place) and (2) how the difference/characteristics are attributed to the places? Features or combination of features that when present, we say this definitely from say, Kedah - because 90% of keris from kedah have this characteristics - for example.

9th May 2015, 01:16 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these. As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras. More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style. The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.

10th May 2015, 09:34 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Peninsula keris are not really my thing, but some of the content in this thread does interest me sufficiently for me to raise some questions. When the term Pandai Saras , or Pandai Mamat, or Pandai Somebodyelse is used, does that mean that for an authority on Peninsula keris, that the name given to the keris identifies the maker, or is it the name of a style? If it is the name of a style, can that style be attributed to a particular span of time? When making the decision to name a keris as Pandai Somethingorother, what indicators are taken into consideration?