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Old 18th February 2011, 12:05 AM   #1
Gustav
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In Tropenmuseum there is (much younger) Balinese keris of somewhat similar appearance (picture borrowed from Maurice). I suppose, such feature as this selut is not known in Java.

I think, we can accept hilt and selut as a bad fit, becouse selut is not covering bungkul.

It is clear, that gambar is being repainted with a symbol, which could be regarded as a christian one. With some certainity the repainting is done in the same style as alas-alasan on gandar, some colours are the same, some differ.

I am not sure if we can call this keris a pick up, becouse it is a really high quality keris and Hasekura Tsunenaga was a diplomat on official mission. After beeing in Spain and Rome he stayed for two years in Manila before returning to Japan. It is a speculation, nothing about this part of his voyage is known, yet I don't think he was staying in this town all the time, and his staying there before the fulfilment of his mission should have some reason.
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Old 18th February 2011, 01:13 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
I am not sure if we can call this keris a pick up, becouse it is a really high quality keris and Hasekura Tsunenaga was a diplomat on official mission. After beeing in Spain and Rome he stayed for two years in Manila before returning to Japan. It is a speculation, nothing about this part of his voyage is known, yet I don't think he was staying in this town all the time, and his staying there before the fulfilment of his mission should have some reason.
Well Gustav, it certain does appear to be a keris of court quality, yet there does not seem to be any evidence that this diplomat met with members of the Balinese (or Javanese if this is of that origin) members of court. Perhaps not a "pick-up" as a tourist might gather, but also not a gift directly for it's point of origin as far as i can tell.
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Old 18th February 2011, 04:00 PM   #3
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Can someone also explain to be what the supposed Christian symbol is that appears on the sarong. I can not see any such thing in the photos presented.
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Old 18th February 2011, 09:52 PM   #4
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Well David, for the speculative oppinion, this keris has been presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga in Manila, there are points:

1) this is a high quality keris; such keris is not only a weapon, it is a status symbol;

2) he was not an ordinary man, he was a diplomat;

3) there is a symbol, which could be regarded as christian, and he, he's family and he's family servants in next generation were christians.

For speculative oppinion, he just obtained this keris, there are points:

1) we don't know about he's contacts with high ranked persons from Bali or Java;

2) the symbol could be painted on his request after obtaining keris in Manila.

You should consider, there is also a possibility, actually also a speculative oppinion, this keris was presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga in Madrid, where he met Philip III and become a christian, or in Rome by Pope, to demonstrate him the religios and political christian influence in South East Asia. You just should bear in mind, also the kastane has a marking on it, which could be regarded as christian.

Regarding the symbol, there is a red bleeding heart, pierced by two arrows, beeing hold by two white dows. I was also curios about this symbol and searched for it. I found a religious order, founded in France at the beginning of 17 cent., which has an emblem of bleeding heart, pierced with two arrows. It has not interested me anymore, so I forget the name of the founder and order. Important for me was, I have an evidence of such symbols in christian emblematic of this time.

The most interesting - abowe the heart there are two eyes with eyebrows, and style how they are painted is Javanese-Balinese.

As I wrote, the symbol appears to be done in the same region where the alas-alasan was done, yet there is no absolute certainity about it.

The ansver on some questions would probably give a chemical analysis of the colours, comparing the paint on Gandar and Gambar. Absolutely clear is, here in Keris Warung Kopi we will not come to any solvings of the many problems regarding this most interesting keris, when even some better quality depictions are problem.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:37 AM   #5
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Thank you for describing the symbols Gustav as they are not visible on either weapon in these photos.
I believe you are missing my point about the acquisition of these blades. The common tale seems to be that he got them in Manila. Perhaps he did get them in Spain. It doesn't really matter. His travels do seem to be pretty well documented and it does not seem that he was ever in Bali of Jawa. My point here is that in all likelihood these were not presented to him by any royal Indonesian court. They seem to have come to him second-hand just as he in turn passed them on to Date Masamune upon his return to Sendai. That is not to say that they were not a gift from someone of power, just not gifted from the source. My initial reason behind bringing up this point was Barry's speculation on the hilt and whether or not it was made specifically for a gift to a man of another culture. My point was that this was probably an normal hilt for it's time, not a special commission. The Christian symbols may have been added anywhere at anytime i suppose. They may have been added by Hasekura Tsunenaga himself for all we know so that he would feel more comfortable with his "pagan" artifact. In any case, as you acknowledge, this is mostly pure speculation so i am unclear exactly what part of my writings you are taking issue with.
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Old 19th February 2011, 09:41 AM   #6
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David, what disturbed me was your statement in #19, this keris would well be something pick up in travel. I know, you wrote later, not pick up in the tourist sense.

I would stay away from forming an oppinion about this hilt from online pictures available.

Some time ago I thought, it would be exactly the opposite case - hilt would be done somewhere outside of Bali or Java, copying a Javanese/Balinese hilt. It would be just a guess of a totally uninformed person. Hilt, particulary face, shows signs of wear, which could somewhat change the appearance, and we have probably only a part of a % of figural hilts from the beginning of 17. cent. for comparing.

The hilt has some strange features on it, yet clearly is not depicting a Japanese budhist deity (correct Japanese name for Guanyin is Kannon). The figure has a hairdo called gelung centung, and sumping at the ears. Jensen wrotes, this would be the hilt type depicting Arjuna or Bhima (in this case Arjuna, becouse there is no moustache), yet in my eyes it differs from the Makassar/Gowa golden hilts and the other wooden figural hilt in Vienna both in details and proportions.

About repainting of Gambar, Wahyono Martowikrido, Former Head of the Department of Archaeology and History, Museum Nasional, has stated the oppinion in his article from 1997, painting was changed or repainted by the same craftsman who painted the rest. As I wrote, clear evidence would bring probably only chemical analysis.

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Old 19th February 2011, 03:27 PM   #7
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Again Gustav, i am not sure what your argument is with me. I have not at all put forth that the hilt depicts a buddhist deity. I have in fact argued exactly the opposite, that it is probably of Bali origin.
I am sorry if my passing remark that this keris was "picked up" in his travels was "disturbing" to you, but there is absolutely no documented evidence in the rather well documented stories of this man's incredible journey's that he ever stepped foot in Bali so i am making the assumption that this was not a formal gift from any Balinese court. It may have been a gift from a diplomat in Manila who had contact with the Balinese court, or it may have been a gift from a Spanish diplomat who had such contact, but right now i see nothing that puts Hasekura Tsunenaga in Bali and most writers seem to think he acquired this keris in Manila. Under what circumstances i am afraid none of us can say. Yes it is a keris of status, but there is nothing to say that it was presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga directly from it's source.
As for the painting i am uncertain how an expert would determine if the symbol painted on the sheath was done by the same hand that painted the sheath if it was done in the same era using similar materials. Even so there is always the possibility that the entire painting of the sheath was done outside of Bali. Who knows. It's hard for me to form any opinions on that from the images available.
Interestingly it seems that the two arrows in the painted design may have been incorporated into the design perhaps because they were a part of Hasekura Tsunenaga's own coat of arms.
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