A Beautiful Vikingsword, 9th Century!

cornelistromp · 1st February 2011, 07:32 PM

pommel:I found the same decoration/pattern published by Lech marek.
an 11thc piast T-type sword pommel. see picture

Blade:the blade pattern i thought i saw before was on a sword auctioned by Bonhams 29 april 2010 however it is a kind of... different.see picture

cross:the decoration/pattern on the guard must be something like the sword hilt from Busdorf Germany. see pic.

best,

Jeff Pringle · 2nd February 2011, 08:55 AM

Yes, the Viking age artisans did decorate their equipment with tendrils and beasts, however on iron hilts (I think we can conclude the hilt is iron from the photo) decoration of this style was done via inlay, not carving. So we don’t even have to get into how the carving might be off, it shouldn’t be there to begin with, I can’t recall a single example from the era.

Unfortunately, referencing another unprovenanced auction sword does not bolster the authenticity of the one in question, though these two are similar enough to make each other look bad. It does not look like the usual chevron pattern created in the Viking period, and it looks a lot like modern attempts to replicate the technique, with what appears to be the chevrons pointing in opposite directions on either side of the blade (indicating much more simple construction than most old blades) …and I’ve never seen an authentic blade with the chevron angle so stretched out. Attached is a photo of a more ‘normal’ chevron angle.

The Bonham sword is even more nonsensical; for fundamental, functional reasons swords were made with the coarse, patterned material in the middle & had edges of very clean metal, going all the way back to Celtic times. And Leutlrit did not make his swords from pattern-welded material, so tis odd that they would reference his swords in the lot description.

cornelistromp · 2nd February 2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

construction than most old blades) …and I’ve never seen an authentic blade with the chevron angle so stretched out. Attached is a photo of a more ‘normal’ chevron angle.

.

Hi Jeff,

that you have never seen it means nothing, Unless you have seen them all! (famous Oakeshott quote)

(it does not mean in any case that it has never existed on Viking swordblades.)

re:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I can’t recall a single example from the era.

attached some carved viking hilt parts;
This elaborate Viking sword hilt was found on the Isle of Man by two gentlemen with a metal detector. Here's how 24-Hour Museum describes the pommel (top part):
Rather like a set of knuckles, the pommel (the top part of the sword) design is divided into 5 parts, or lobes, each with intricately carved designs. In between the lobes are sets of finely twisted silver wires – a technique seen a few times on artefacts from the Isle.

kind regards,

Battara · 2nd February 2011, 06:04 PM

So the consensus is this is a fake. Well I was saying that this is in remarkable condition for being in "excavated condition".

Lee · 2nd February 2011, 06:14 PM

My own experience in examining a number of Viking Age swords is very much in concordance with Jeff's observations.

That 'stretched chevron' pattern is, indeed, unexpected in Viking Age material; I have had this nagging déjà vu that I had seen somewhat similar patterns somewhere in pre-Viking material and at last I have placed this memory with the Danish/N. German Roman Iron Age bog finds and confirmed it by reviewing the marvelous recently published (2006) catalog of the Illerup Ådal finds.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd February 2011, 02:57 PM

Cornelistromp,

Are the upper and lower guards you show made of Iron?
From all appearances, they seem to be non-ferrous metal, as they show little sign of corrosion.
Jeff was speaking of iron hilts being decorated with inlay/overlay, and was not speaking of non-ferrous hilts as it is well known that such hilts often have designs cut/cast into them.

Some iron hilts Do show Light engraving, where they had originally a non-ferrous overlay, (Silver or whatever) then a design cut Through the overlay, into the iron beneath, to show contrast.
Such engraving appears lightly done, compared to the heavy designs on the non-ferrous hilts.

As always, if we use the words Never or Always,...we get into trouble!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Matchlock · 3rd February 2011, 08:02 PM

Hello Richard,

It's good to hear of you, my friend, and to learn from your both carefully and well balanced terms as ever.

Best as always,
Michael

cornelistromp · 3rd February 2011, 08:42 PM

Hi Richard,

you are right if I use the word never in a discussion with my wife, 9 of 10 times it means that Iam in serious trouble

re:carving in iron in high relief.
In the national museum in Helsinki are (plenty) viking Hilt examples of iron carving in high relief.

what we know and have seen in viking swords is only "the top of the iceberg" there must have been 100's of thousands of swords.
Unfortunately there are only a few % remaining for study, which are obviously far from representative of what was common in forging /patterns and of what was common in the use of certain type of decorations.

best,

1st February 2011, 07:32 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	pommel:I found the same decoration/pattern published by Lech marek. an 11thc piast T-type sword pommel. see picture Blade:the blade pattern i thought i saw before was on a sword auctioned by Bonhams 29 april 2010 however it is a kind of... different.see picture cross:the decoration/pattern on the guard must be something like the sword hilt from Busdorf Germany. see pic. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 2nd February 2011 at 07:25 AM.

2nd February 2011, 08:55 AM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Yes, the Viking age artisans did decorate their equipment with tendrils and beasts, however on iron hilts (I think we can conclude the hilt is iron from the photo) decoration of this style was done via inlay, not carving. So we don’t even have to get into how the carving might be off, it shouldn’t be there to begin with, I can’t recall a single example from the era. Unfortunately, referencing another unprovenanced auction sword does not bolster the authenticity of the one in question, though these two are similar enough to make each other look bad. It does not look like the usual chevron pattern created in the Viking period, and it looks a lot like modern attempts to replicate the technique, with what appears to be the chevrons pointing in opposite directions on either side of the blade (indicating much more simple construction than most old blades) …and I’ve never seen an authentic blade with the chevron angle so stretched out. Attached is a photo of a more ‘normal’ chevron angle. The Bonham sword is even more nonsensical; for fundamental, functional reasons swords were made with the coarse, patterned material in the middle & had edges of very clean metal, going all the way back to Celtic times. And Leutlrit did not make his swords from pattern-welded material, so tis odd that they would reference his swords in the lot description. Attached Images

2nd February 2011, 06:04 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	So the consensus is this is a fake. Well I was saying that this is in remarkable condition for being in "excavated condition".

2nd February 2011, 06:14 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	My own experience in examining a number of Viking Age swords is very much in concordance with Jeff's observations. That 'stretched chevron' pattern is, indeed, unexpected in Viking Age material; I have had this nagging déjà vu that I had seen somewhat similar patterns somewhere in pre-Viking material and at last I have placed this memory with the Danish/N. German Roman Iron Age bog finds and confirmed it by reviewing the marvelous recently published (2006) catalog of the Illerup Ådal finds.

3rd February 2011, 02:57 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Cornelistromp, Are the upper and lower guards you show made of Iron? From all appearances, they seem to be non-ferrous metal, as they show little sign of corrosion. Jeff was speaking of iron hilts being decorated with inlay/overlay, and was not speaking of non-ferrous hilts as it is well known that such hilts often have designs cut/cast into them. Some iron hilts Do show Light engraving, where they had originally a non-ferrous overlay, (Silver or whatever) then a design cut Through the overlay, into the iron beneath, to show contrast. Such engraving appears lightly done, compared to the heavy designs on the non-ferrous hilts. As always, if we use the words Never or Always,...we get into trouble! Best wishes, Richard.

3rd February 2011, 08:02 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello Richard, It's good to hear of you, my friend, and to learn from your both carefully and well balanced terms as ever. Best as always, Michael

3rd February 2011, 08:42 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Richard, you are right if I use the word never in a discussion with my wife, 9 of 10 times it means that Iam in serious trouble re:carving in iron in high relief. In the national museum in Helsinki are (plenty) viking Hilt examples of iron carving in high relief. what we know and have seen in viking swords is only "the top of the iceberg" there must have been 100's of thousands of swords. Unfortunately there are only a few % remaining for study, which are obviously far from representative of what was common in forging /patterns and of what was common in the use of certain type of decorations. best,