BIG GUNS

David · 20th January 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I always wondered what in the world 'Mons Meg' meant, though clearly the Mons referred to the city in Flanders where it was from. According to what I could find in OED, the term 'meg' referred loosely to any huge ordnance, and or to the loud noise or report. In one reference around 1700, it was used describing loud noise of ringing bells and the discharge of 'roaring megs'.

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2011, 10:12 PM

Hi David, thank you for answering!!! and great info, which appears to be right. In "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" (ed. David Caldwell, Edinburgh, 1981, p.419, Stevenson) the author notes that, "...in 1967 Dr. Claude Gaier gave us at last the fascinating documentation of the bombard first ,and apparantly until the 17th c.called 'mons', now familiarly known as Mons Meg".

"Music is a roaring meg against melancholy "
-Burton

In the 17th century, 'Roaring Meg' was a term used for several powerful cannons used, but in particular associated with a mortar cast in 1646 during the seige of Goodrich Castle .

According to E.C.Brewer ("Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" 1905) the name meg has been given to several articles of unusual size- thus the large blue black marble in the south cloister of Westminster Abbey over the grave of Gerrasius de Blois is called 'long meg of Westminster'.
The author also notes ' Mons Meg' and that the 'bomb' (bombard?) forged for the seige of Oudendarde now in the city of Ghent is called 'Mad Meg'.
It is also noted in "Edinburgh Antiquarian" of September, 1769 that a very tall man named Peter Branan was often called 'Long Meg'.
The monoliths near Penrith Cumberland, and about 67 in number, being about 10 ft. high, are arranged together, but one separate, and about 15 ft. high is termed ' Long Meg', and the arrangement called by locals and in subsequent lore, 'Long Meg and her daughters'.
Apparantly the term 'long meg' dates in these type parlances from about the time of Henry VIII.

It would seem that 'Mons' was given to James II in 1457, and long stood as a powerful appearing sentinel, with Brewer in another note, mentions that to the Scots, thought of her as a 'palladium'. That is a safeguard or something that provides safety to a city. It would seem to me that the term 'meg' with reference to unusual size, and in the perception that it was rather an item that showed power , was probably more of a product of the kind of traditional sentiment generated by Sir Walter Scott, and popularized by him with reference to this gun.

He was instrumental in the return to Edinburgh of the huge gun from London in 1828-29, and the term seems to be applied rather affectionately in some of the references in correspondence imploring the return.

It should be noted that the bombard previously mentioned and known as 'mad meg' was also known as 'the Red Devil' for its red paint. In a note regarding Mons Meg, when it had fallen into disuse after the collapse of its carraige, and having been neglected, was lifted up onto trestles and 'painted with red lead' in 1501.

Was this red lead paint a kind of 'japanning' for protection from corrosion? or was it it more of the psychological effect that was clearly attached to these huge weapons?

In the Royal navy it seems that the gun decks were painted red on many of the Man of War ships, allegedly to reduce the effect of gore in the effects of battle, but wonder if there is any relation.

attached, Roaring Meg

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 20th January 2011, 10:32 PM

Chaps,

Beautiful pictures and a great post with amazing information gents, stuff I certainly never knew or ventured in to but one question that has always been on my mind since seeing the cannon in Elgoods Hindu work, HOW ON EARTH DID ANYONE LOAD THESE MUZZLE LOADING massive cannons????

Gav

VANDOO · 21st January 2011, 02:32 AM

THEY WOULD HAVE USED A LOADING SLING ON A LARGE LIFT. I CAN'T FIND A PICTURE BUT NO DOUBT IT RESEMBLED THE SIEGE MACHINES USED TO THROW LARGE ROCKS. THE BALL WOULD BE ROLLED INTO POSITION IN THE SLING THEN THE BALL LIFTED AND SWUNG TO THE BARREL AND THEN PUSHED IN. THE CHARGE OF POWDER AND WADDING IF ANY WOULD GO IN FIRST THEN THE BALL. TAMP IT IN AND TOUCH IT OFF. DON'T STAND BEHIND THE CANNON THE SAME GOES FOR THE RECOILESS CANNON BUT ITS THE BLAST THAT GETS YA NOT THE ACTUAL CANNON RUNNING OVER YOU.

Gavin Nugent · 21st January 2011, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THEY WOULD HAVE USED A LOADING SLING ON A LARGE LIFT. I CAN'T FIND A PICTURE BUT NO DOUBT IT RESEMBLED THE SIEGE MACHINES USED TO THROW LARGE ROCKS. THE BALL WOULD BE ROLLED INTO POSITION IN THE SLING THEN THE BALL LIFTED AND SWUNG TO THE BARREL AND THEN PUSHED IN. THE CHARGE OF POWDER AND WADDING IF ANY WOULD GO IN FIRST THEN THE BALL. TAMP IT IN AND TOUCH IT OFF. DON'T STAND BEHIND THE CANNON THE SAME GOES FOR THE RECOILESS CANNON BUT ITS THE BLAST THAT GETS YA NOT THE ACTUAL CANNON RUNNING OVER YOU.

Thanks Vandoo, this is exactly what I thought but as yet I haven't seen one. I really would have expected to see something like this in the civil war image above as they also look bloody heavy! The guy second in on the right seems to have a large set of calipers or something else perhaps to aid lifting with two men?

Gav

VANDOO · 21st January 2011, 06:15 PM

I HAVE DONE A BIT MORE DIGGING SEARCH WIKIPEDIA FOR "LIST OF LARGEST CANNONS BY CALIBER". THERE ARE SOME GOOD PICTURES AND INFO THERE. I HAVE INCLUDED A FEW MORE PICTURES TO KEEP IT INTERESTING.
1. FIRE SACK MEDEVIL SIEGE EMPLACEMENT , NOTE HOW THEY HAVE A DOOR TO PROTECT THE LOADERS AND HOW THE GUN IS SECURED AGAINST RECOIL. THE BEST SECURITY WOULD HAVE BEEN TO USE A LIVE TREE AND CUT IT OFF AND SECURE THE GUN AGAINST IT IF POSSIBLE OTHERWISE A LOT OF DIGGING AND SHORING UP OF LONG POLES WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
2. AUSTRALIAN WW1 TRENCH MORTAT EMPLACEMENT. THE MORTAR WAS ESPECIALLY SUITED FOR TRENCH FIGHTING AS THE SHELL WENT UP AND DROPPED DOWN INTO THE TRENCH WHERE DIRECT FIRING GUNS COULD NOT.
3. PUMHART VON STEYR, STYRIA AUSTRIA 15 TH CENTURY, BORE 820MM, 690 KG. STONE BALL, 15KG POWDER, RANGE 600 METERS
4. 18TH CENTURY FRENCH MOTAR DIAGRAM
5. SMALL FRENCH TRENCH MORTAR WW1
6. KNIGHTS OF SAINT JOHN, 1480 TO 1500 FIRED 260KG BALLS
7. 600MM MOTORIZED KARL GERHERT ,FIREING ALSO SEE LOADING LIFT.
8. MALLETS MORTAR, BORE 910MM, 1857, BRITISH, EXPLOSIVE SHELLS.
9. PAIX HANS MONSTER MORTAR 1832
10. TSAR CANNON LARGEST BORE AT 890MM.

NOTE IN THE FIRST POST SOME OF THE CANNON BALLS IN THE FIRST PICTURE WERE HOLLOW AND CONTAINED EXPLOSIVE CHARGES. THAT WOULD BE LIGHTER THAN SOLID SHOT BUT STILL QUITE HEAVY IN THE LARGER CALIBERS.
THE SECOND PICTURE IS OF A MORTAR NAMED THE GENERAL, NOTE THE STEPS AT ITS FRONT . I SUSPECT AT LEAST 4 MEN USING SOME SORT OF SLING LOADED THE BALL ONE GOING UP THE STEPS TO EACH SIDE OF THE BARREL AND TWO IN THE MIDDLE TO SUPPORT IT AND PUSH IT IN. JUST A GUESS AND I AM GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO BE ONE OF THE MEN ON A LOADING CREW.

junker · 21st January 2011, 07:15 PM

Hello,
here is a link for the second largest canon in europe called the "Faule Mette" from 1411 which was locatet in the city of Braunschweig, germany.
The balls had a weight of 550 kg and waer made of stone, the caliber was 76 cm. It was too heavy to take it away and was allways on the city walls. It just shoot 12 times and was cast in 1787

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Mette

I saw one of the balls in the local museum
by the way there was one item which could be interestin for matchlock. There is also a 4 barreled wodden hand canon in the museum

celtan · 25th January 2011, 07:30 PM

Murderer = Mortar

Palladium = Champion / Defender / Warrior representing a cause, person or group.

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Jim, in the Wiki entry this info is sited to Agnes MacKenzie in the book Scottish Paegent.
"The gun is never called "Mons Meg" in any contemporary references until the 17th century. The "Meg" may either be a reference to Margaret of Denmark, Queen of James III of Scotland, or simply an alliteration, while Mons was one of the locations where the cannon was originally tested. McKenzie records that this class of artillery was known as a murderer and Mons Meg was certainly described as such."

VANDOO · 12th December 2011, 01:09 AM

HERE IS A IMPRESSIVE PICTURE OF THE GERMAN 250MM. K5 FIRING. NOTE THE TROOPS COVERING THEIR EARS AND THE LOADING MECANISM PARTIALLY SHOWN. A VERY IMPRESSIVE MUZZLE BLAST.

VANDOO · 6th January 2012, 05:09 AM

A FEW MORE BIG GUNS.
1 TWO GERMAN BATTLESHIP GUNS, ALSO USED ON SHORE AS NAVAL SHORE GUNS. A 30.5CM AND A 38CM GUN
2. GERMAQN DORA GUN READY TO FIRE NOTE SHELL AND CHARGE SIZE
3. BULL'S SUPER GUN HARP 1960'S
4. ENGLISH JAIVAN CANNON INDIA
5. RUSSIAN ATOMIC MOBILE CANNON 1957 , 420MM
6. 30 POUNDER NAVAL CANNON READY TO FIRE
7. GERMAN DORA GUN SHELL 7100KG.
8. IRAQ ,SADAM'S SUPER GUN BEFORE COMPLEATION. BULLS LAST GUN.
RANGE 500 MILES.
9. VARIOUS 16TH CENTURY ARTILLERY
10. TSAR CANNON REAR VIEW
11. USS IOWA FIREING 16 IN. /41CM. GUNS, NOTE WHAT IT DOES TO THE SEA.
THE JAPANESE YAMATO CLASS BATTLESHIPS HAD NINE 18INCH/ 46CM. GUNS. I AM NOT SURE IF THAT IS THE LARGEST EVER USED ON A SHIP.

WITH THE ADVENT OF ROCKETS, MISSELS AND SUCH BIG GUNS ARE NO LONGER AS USEFUL BUT ARTILLERY STILL PLAYS A ROLE IN WARFARE ON A SMALLER SCALE.

Andi · 13th September 2013, 09:19 PM

Maybe not one of he largest in ever but uncertainly one of the most imressive at its times.

The Dardanelles Gun, a siege gun dating from soon after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. It is cast in bronze and was made in two parts: the barrel which holds the shot and the chamber which holds the charge. The two parts screw together gas tight. Overall length is 5.2 m and it weighs 16.8 tonnes. It fires a stone ball of about 300 kg some 1600 m. The rate of fire was very slow - about 15 rounds per day. Currently in the Royal Armouries at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth, England. A phantastic masterpiece of medieval engineering and metal casting.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-...gle-object/196

VANDOO · 12th June 2016, 06:09 AM

WHILE SEARCHING FOR CAMEL GUNS I FOUND THESE SO INCLUDE THEM HERE. NOT TRULY BIG GUNS BUT I WOULD NOT WANT THEM SHOOTING AT ME.
#1. WW2 DESIGN FOR A RUSSIAN SUPER TANK
#2, & #3. FORTIFICATION UNIT FOR A GERMAN 50 MM. GUN.

Pukka Bundook · 16th June 2016, 02:52 PM

Andi,

The piece you show in post 15 above is a fantastic piece of engineering!!
How they cut the breech threads I do not know, but whoever did this work really knew his onions!

I think nowadays they would say it was impossible back then, but these craftsmen were brilliant. No other word for it!!

Thank you for posting.

Richard.

21st January 2011, 06:15 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE DONE A BIT MORE DIGGING SEARCH WIKIPEDIA FOR "LIST OF LARGEST CANNONS BY CALIBER". THERE ARE SOME GOOD PICTURES AND INFO THERE. I HAVE INCLUDED A FEW MORE PICTURES TO KEEP IT INTERESTING. 1. FIRE SACK MEDEVIL SIEGE EMPLACEMENT , NOTE HOW THEY HAVE A DOOR TO PROTECT THE LOADERS AND HOW THE GUN IS SECURED AGAINST RECOIL. THE BEST SECURITY WOULD HAVE BEEN TO USE A LIVE TREE AND CUT IT OFF AND SECURE THE GUN AGAINST IT IF POSSIBLE OTHERWISE A LOT OF DIGGING AND SHORING UP OF LONG POLES WOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY. 2. AUSTRALIAN WW1 TRENCH MORTAT EMPLACEMENT. THE MORTAR WAS ESPECIALLY SUITED FOR TRENCH FIGHTING AS THE SHELL WENT UP AND DROPPED DOWN INTO THE TRENCH WHERE DIRECT FIRING GUNS COULD NOT. 3. PUMHART VON STEYR, STYRIA AUSTRIA 15 TH CENTURY, BORE 820MM, 690 KG. STONE BALL, 15KG POWDER, RANGE 600 METERS 4. 18TH CENTURY FRENCH MOTAR DIAGRAM 5. SMALL FRENCH TRENCH MORTAR WW1 6. KNIGHTS OF SAINT JOHN, 1480 TO 1500 FIRED 260KG BALLS 7. 600MM MOTORIZED KARL GERHERT ,FIREING ALSO SEE LOADING LIFT. 8. MALLETS MORTAR, BORE 910MM, 1857, BRITISH, EXPLOSIVE SHELLS. 9. PAIX HANS MONSTER MORTAR 1832 10. TSAR CANNON LARGEST BORE AT 890MM. NOTE IN THE FIRST POST SOME OF THE CANNON BALLS IN THE FIRST PICTURE WERE HOLLOW AND CONTAINED EXPLOSIVE CHARGES. THAT WOULD BE LIGHTER THAN SOLID SHOT BUT STILL QUITE HEAVY IN THE LARGER CALIBERS. THE SECOND PICTURE IS OF A MORTAR NAMED THE GENERAL, NOTE THE STEPS AT ITS FRONT . I SUSPECT AT LEAST 4 MEN USING SOME SORT OF SLING LOADED THE BALL ONE GOING UP THE STEPS TO EACH SIDE OF THE BARREL AND TWO IN THE MIDDLE TO SUPPORT IT AND PUSH IT IN. JUST A GUESS AND I AM GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO BE ONE OF THE MEN ON A LOADING CREW. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 21st January 2011 at 07:18 PM.

21st January 2011, 07:15 PM	#7
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	Faule Mette Hello, here is a link for the second largest canon in europe called the "Faule Mette" from 1411 which was locatet in the city of Braunschweig, germany. The balls had a weight of 550 kg and waer made of stone, the caliber was 76 cm. It was too heavy to take it away and was allways on the city walls. It just shoot 12 times and was cast in 1787 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Mette I saw one of the balls in the local museum by the way there was one item which could be interestin for matchlock. There is also a 4 barreled wodden hand canon in the museum

12th December 2011, 01:09 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS A IMPRESSIVE PICTURE OF THE GERMAN 250MM. K5 FIRING. NOTE THE TROOPS COVERING THEIR EARS AND THE LOADING MECANISM PARTIALLY SHOWN. A VERY IMPRESSIVE MUZZLE BLAST. Attached Images

6th January 2012, 05:09 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE BIG GUNS. 1 TWO GERMAN BATTLESHIP GUNS, ALSO USED ON SHORE AS NAVAL SHORE GUNS. A 30.5CM AND A 38CM GUN 2. GERMAQN DORA GUN READY TO FIRE NOTE SHELL AND CHARGE SIZE 3. BULL'S SUPER GUN HARP 1960'S 4. ENGLISH JAIVAN CANNON INDIA 5. RUSSIAN ATOMIC MOBILE CANNON 1957 , 420MM 6. 30 POUNDER NAVAL CANNON READY TO FIRE 7. GERMAN DORA GUN SHELL 7100KG. 8. IRAQ ,SADAM'S SUPER GUN BEFORE COMPLEATION. BULLS LAST GUN. RANGE 500 MILES. 9. VARIOUS 16TH CENTURY ARTILLERY 10. TSAR CANNON REAR VIEW 11. USS IOWA FIREING 16 IN. /41CM. GUNS, NOTE WHAT IT DOES TO THE SEA. THE JAPANESE YAMATO CLASS BATTLESHIPS HAD NINE 18INCH/ 46CM. GUNS. I AM NOT SURE IF THAT IS THE LARGEST EVER USED ON A SHIP. WITH THE ADVENT OF ROCKETS, MISSELS AND SUCH BIG GUNS ARE NO LONGER AS USEFUL BUT ARTILLERY STILL PLAYS A ROLE IN WARFARE ON A SMALLER SCALE. Attached Images

13th September 2013, 09:19 PM	#11
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Maybe not one of he largest in ever but uncertainly one of the most imressive at its times. The Dardanelles Gun, a siege gun dating from soon after the fall of Constantinople in 1453. It is cast in bronze and was made in two parts: the barrel which holds the shot and the chamber which holds the charge. The two parts screw together gas tight. Overall length is 5.2 m and it weighs 16.8 tonnes. It fires a stone ball of about 300 kg some 1600 m. The rate of fire was very slow - about 15 rounds per day. Currently in the Royal Armouries at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth, England. A phantastic masterpiece of medieval engineering and metal casting. http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-...gle-object/196 Attached Images

20th January 2011, 10:12 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,592	Hi David, thank you for answering!!! and great info, which appears to be right. In "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" (ed. David Caldwell, Edinburgh, 1981, p.419, Stevenson) the author notes that, "...in 1967 Dr. Claude Gaier gave us at last the fascinating documentation of the bombard first ,and apparantly until the 17th c.called 'mons', now familiarly known as Mons Meg". "Music is a roaring meg against melancholy " -Burton In the 17th century, 'Roaring Meg' was a term used for several powerful cannons used, but in particular associated with a mortar cast in 1646 during the seige of Goodrich Castle . According to E.C.Brewer ("Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" 1905) the name meg has been given to several articles of unusual size- thus the large blue black marble in the south cloister of Westminster Abbey over the grave of Gerrasius de Blois is called 'long meg of Westminster'. The author also notes ' Mons Meg' and that the 'bomb' (bombard?) forged for the seige of Oudendarde now in the city of Ghent is called 'Mad Meg'. It is also noted in "Edinburgh Antiquarian" of September, 1769 that a very tall man named Peter Branan was often called 'Long Meg'. The monoliths near Penrith Cumberland, and about 67 in number, being about 10 ft. high, are arranged together, but one separate, and about 15 ft. high is termed ' Long Meg', and the arrangement called by locals and in subsequent lore, 'Long Meg and her daughters'. Apparantly the term 'long meg' dates in these type parlances from about the time of Henry VIII. It would seem that 'Mons' was given to James II in 1457, and long stood as a powerful appearing sentinel, with Brewer in another note, mentions that to the Scots, thought of her as a 'palladium'. That is a safeguard or something that provides safety to a city. It would seem to me that the term 'meg' with reference to unusual size, and in the perception that it was rather an item that showed power , was probably more of a product of the kind of traditional sentiment generated by Sir Walter Scott, and popularized by him with reference to this gun. He was instrumental in the return to Edinburgh of the huge gun from London in 1828-29, and the term seems to be applied rather affectionately in some of the references in correspondence imploring the return. It should be noted that the bombard previously mentioned and known as 'mad meg' was also known as 'the Red Devil' for its red paint. In a note regarding Mons Meg, when it had fallen into disuse after the collapse of its carraige, and having been neglected, was lifted up onto trestles and 'painted with red lead' in 1501. Was this red lead paint a kind of 'japanning' for protection from corrosion? or was it it more of the psychological effect that was clearly attached to these huge weapons? In the Royal navy it seems that the gun decks were painted red on many of the Man of War ships, allegedly to reduce the effect of gore in the effects of battle, but wonder if there is any relation. attached, Roaring Meg All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th January 2011 at 10:24 PM.

20th January 2011, 10:32 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	loading Chaps, Beautiful pictures and a great post with amazing information gents, stuff I certainly never knew or ventured in to but one question that has always been on my mind since seeing the cannon in Elgoods Hindu work, HOW ON EARTH DID ANYONE LOAD THESE MUZZLE LOADING massive cannons???? Gav

21st January 2011, 02:32 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THEY WOULD HAVE USED A LOADING SLING ON A LARGE LIFT. I CAN'T FIND A PICTURE BUT NO DOUBT IT RESEMBLED THE SIEGE MACHINES USED TO THROW LARGE ROCKS. THE BALL WOULD BE ROLLED INTO POSITION IN THE SLING THEN THE BALL LIFTED AND SWUNG TO THE BARREL AND THEN PUSHED IN. THE CHARGE OF POWDER AND WADDING IF ANY WOULD GO IN FIRST THEN THE BALL. TAMP IT IN AND TOUCH IT OFF. DON'T STAND BEHIND THE CANNON THE SAME GOES FOR THE RECOILESS CANNON BUT ITS THE BLAST THAT GETS YA NOT THE ACTUAL CANNON RUNNING OVER YOU.

12th June 2016, 06:09 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHILE SEARCHING FOR CAMEL GUNS I FOUND THESE SO INCLUDE THEM HERE. NOT TRULY BIG GUNS BUT I WOULD NOT WANT THEM SHOOTING AT ME. #1. WW2 DESIGN FOR A RUSSIAN SUPER TANK #2, & #3. FORTIFICATION UNIT FOR A GERMAN 50 MM. GUN. Attached Images

16th June 2016, 02:52 PM	#13
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Andi, The piece you show in post 15 above is a fantastic piece of engineering!! How they cut the breech threads I do not know, but whoever did this work really knew his onions! I think nowadays they would say it was impossible back then, but these craftsmen were brilliant. No other word for it!! Thank you for posting. Richard.