Kaskara from Darfur

Dom · 16th January 2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I need a translation, if possible............Dave.

at least ... here we are

we got it

sorry for delay, but we found who wrote that poem, and we offer you not a translation, because ... how to translate a poetic spirit ... ??

....
but what could be the sense of the verses
"the seat of the rider on the back of his horse is stable,
without regard to the fury and cries of his enemies,
and he did not need to be fastened"

the writter; El Iman Al Busiri,
born ° 620 Hegir,
he is accepted to be an Egyptian from Upper Egypt with Berber origins (Morocco),
he was in charge for a mosquee (title of "Iman")

ref according with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qa%E1%B...%ABda_al-Burda

à +

Dom

Edster · 16th January 2011, 10:07 PM

Attached is a photo of a sword stylistically similiar, but not of the quality of Daves. I believe the blade is European due to the makes mark barely ledgable. I have a photo of another example given to a Mr. Shangiti (a famous schalor and jurist) and that is a close cousin to the Daves with similiar tassel and diamond motif grip. in a library dedicated to him at the University of Kartoum. There are six swords in the "Shangiti Collection" in his library in 1884. Sorry I don't currently have access to these photographs to illustrate.

The diamond motif of Daves sword is said to have originated at Atbara on the Nile below Khartoum. The Nile Arabised tribes were the most sophisticated and prosperious and were at odds to the Mahdi and the Khalifa who were from the western provinces.

My guess on Daves sword is that it was produced and decorated at Atbara as a presentational piece. It may have in fact been gifted to Ali Dinar, but I don't think it originated in Darfur.

Best regards,
Ed

DaveS · 17th January 2011, 03:28 AM

Dom: Thank you very much for that translation. It does differ slightly from
what we were told originally, but the gist of the meaning was similar. Has
anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

Dom · 18th January 2011, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

not a genealogy as I read it, just his name according with Arabic I.D. record
name (Mohamed al Fadl) + father name (Zakaria) + Grand-father name (Ali Dinar)
this way of recording the people is still yet applicable in almost of Middle-East countries, indeed Egypt or Sudan

the obverse of the poem gives
the Sultan Ali Dinar son of Sultan Zakaria son of Sultan Mohamed al-Fadl

the second pic,
1st lign, beginning word unknown, then
Sultan Ali Dinar
2nd lign
the Sultan son of the Sultan Zakariya

Darfur

[Darfur Sultanate flag to 1916]

Sultans
1603 - 1637 Suleiman Solong
1637 - 1682 Musa ibn Suleiman
1682 - 1722 Ahmad Bakr ibn Musa
1722 - 1732 Muhammad I Dawra
1732 - 1739 Umar Lele
1739 - 1756 Abu´l Kasim
1756 - 1785 Muhammad II Tairab
1785 - 1799 `Abd ar-Rahman ar-Rashid
1799 - 1839 Muhammad III al-Fadl
1839 - Apr 1873 Muhammad IV al-Husayn
1839 - 1843 Muhammad Abu Madyan (in rebellion)
21 Apr 1873 - 23 Oct 1874 Ibrahim Qarad Koyko
1874 - Hasab Allah
1874 - 1875 Sayf ad-Din Bush
1877 - 1880 Sayf ad-Din Muhammad Harun ar-Rashid
1880 - 1887 `Abd Allah Dud Banja
1887 - 14 Feb 1888 Yusuf
1888 - 1898 Abu´l Khayrat
1891 - 1908 Sanin al-Husayn (in rebellion)

Emir
21 Mar 1899 - 22 May 1916 `Ali Dinar ibn Zakariyya (b. c.1865 - d. 1916)

************************************

see also this link

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot...sp?lot_id=PXT2
the matter is .... sale for "A silver-mounted sword of Sultan Ali Dinar"
[group of swords, numbering less than ten recorded examples, which were made for the Sultan himself.
They have been described as 'the last truly distinctive commissions of Islamic edged weapons' (Paris 1988, p.147)]
question ... ??? yours, ist's one of the tenth ???

Sudanese warrior from that period

à +

Dom

DaveS · 18th January 2011, 04:22 AM

Dom: Again, thank you very much for your work in translating these inscrip-
tions. I wonder if there would be any information in any books on Islamic
arms regarding the two pieces of chain mail on the tassels. The man that
did the first translations had said that these represented to recent births
in the owners family. There's never been anything iv'e ever read that refers
to a practice like this. Has anyone ever heard of this..........Dave.

RSWORD · 18th January 2011, 05:02 AM

This is becoming a most interesting thread and thank you Dom for the translation assistance. I also appreciate the kind words from Jim and Gene. I was definitely surprised in my other thread when you guys didn't jump in! Hey, better late than never.

Dom, here are some pictures that are much clearer that I am hoping you can translate in full detail and I have also included an inscription from the handle that I hope you can make out.

It would be great to add these two swords to the reference material as possible swords of Sultan Ali Dinar.

Dom · 18th January 2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Dom, here are some pictures that are much clearer that I am hoping you can translate in full detail

Yeessss

and will be a good (a very good) news

just time to translate the Quran verses, and you will get it

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

and I have also included an inscription from the handle that I hope you can make out.

might you clarify a point, pls
- which handle ?? spear ? sword ?
because we reach a translation,
but not sure that it's matching with the concerned item,
specially, if we don't have idea about it

à +

Dom

16th January 2011, 10:07 PM	#2
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 441	Attached is a photo of a sword stylistically similiar, but not of the quality of Daves. I believe the blade is European due to the makes mark barely ledgable. I have a photo of another example given to a Mr. Shangiti (a famous schalor and jurist) and that is a close cousin to the Daves with similiar tassel and diamond motif grip. in a library dedicated to him at the University of Kartoum. There are six swords in the "Shangiti Collection" in his library in 1884. Sorry I don't currently have access to these photographs to illustrate. The diamond motif of Daves sword is said to have originated at Atbara on the Nile below Khartoum. The Nile Arabised tribes were the most sophisticated and prosperious and were at odds to the Mahdi and the Khalifa who were from the western provinces. My guess on Daves sword is that it was produced and decorated at Atbara as a presentational piece. It may have in fact been gifted to Ali Dinar, but I don't think it originated in Darfur. Best regards, Ed Attached Images

18th January 2011, 05:02 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	This is becoming a most interesting thread and thank you Dom for the translation assistance. I also appreciate the kind words from Jim and Gene. I was definitely surprised in my other thread when you guys didn't jump in! Hey, better late than never. Dom, here are some pictures that are much clearer that I am hoping you can translate in full detail and I have also included an inscription from the handle that I hope you can make out. It would be great to add these two swords to the reference material as possible swords of Sultan Ali Dinar. Attached Images

17th January 2011, 03:28 AM	#3
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: Thank you very much for that translation. It does differ slightly from what we were told originally, but the gist of the meaning was similar. Has anyone had any luck with the other inscription........Dave.

18th January 2011, 04:22 AM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Dom: Again, thank you very much for your work in translating these inscrip- tions. I wonder if there would be any information in any books on Islamic arms regarding the two pieces of chain mail on the tassels. The man that did the first translations had said that these represented to recent births in the owners family. There's never been anything iv'e ever read that refers to a practice like this. Has anyone ever heard of this..........Dave.