Posted on request: ivory,silver & twistcore!

Maurice · 16th January 2011, 09:33 AM

Digging this old thread up, because I might have new information about the origin of the sundang.
According to an European keris collector, who lived several years in the kelantan state of Malaysia, the sundang originates from south Thailand / North east Malaysia.
According to him it looks like Lankasuka, regarding the blade, ganja and also the silverwork on the sleeve.

As I have no knowledge about the region we are talking here, I hope some of you know more and could confirm or discuss it?

Thank you in advance,
Maurice

Amuk Murugul · 16th January 2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Digging this old thread up, because I might have new information about the origin of the sundang.
According to an European keris collector, who lived several years in the kelantan state of Malaysia, the sundang originates from south Thailand / North east Malaysia.
According to him it looks like Lankasuka, regarding the blade, ganja and also the silverwork on the sleeve.

As I have no knowledge about the region we are talking here, I hope some of you know more and could confirm or discuss it?

Thank you in advance,
Maurice

Hullo everybody!

My doea-benggol's worth .....

If you want to know about keris culture around the southern Thailand area, you may wish to contact Hj. Ismail Benjasmith or Abang Awang. I'm sure Malay forumites will be able to guide you there.

Best,

Maurice · 24th January 2011, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

My doea-benggol's worth .....

If you want to know about keris culture around the southern Thailand area, you may wish to contact Hj. Ismail Benjasmith or Abang Awang. I'm sure Malay forumites will be able to guide you there.

Best,

Thank you for the tip....

Maurice · 24th January 2011, 08:19 PM

I've got the feeling the origine of my kris will not be solved.
It seems that the most knowledgeable people who did study moro swords or Malay kerisses for a long, long time, don't agree with eachother.
Always nice when something "not usual" pops up.

I discussed it just the past days with a respected and well known dealer, who did also a lot of study on moro stuff.
He told me he had seen several moro krisses with repousse work, and he is almost 100% sure that this kris has all the classic moro features, according the pommel, and also the twistcore on the blade.
The double elephant hooks indeed are according to him unusual, but the gangja and the quality work is all moro.
Probably this is a rare variation of moro sword to him.

Thank you for discussing this piece, and if somebody finds some new information which will lead to the origine, please let me know.

Regards,
Maurice

VANDOO · 24th January 2011, 10:30 PM

MY GUT FEELING IS THE BLADE AND IVORY POMMEL MAY BE OF THE SAME AGE. THE SILVERWORK ON THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD MORE RECENT, THE SCABBARD LOOKS MORE RECENT TOO. THE OLDER SILVER WORK I HAVE SEEN ON ITEMS FROM MALAYSIA AND THE PHILIPPINES TEND TO HAVE A MORE PURE SILVER AND ARE USUALLY THINNER, WORN, CRACKED, BENT, DENTED ECT.
THE SEPARATE GANJA SEEMS TO HAVE THE STRAIGHT LINE FROM THE ORIGINAL ELEPHANTS TRUNK AND THEN IS CUT DOWN AT AN ANGLE AS USUAL. IT GOES INTO THE HOLE WHERE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK IS LOCATED. IF SO THERE IS A BREAK IN THE OUTSIDE CARVING SO THE TWO PARTS DO NOT CONNECT TO COMPLETELY ENCLOSE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK. IF THIS IS SO I THINK THE BLADE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE IN THE NORMAL MANNER. IT WAS LATER MODIFIED PERHAPS BY THE SWORDMAKER BUT MORE LIKELY AT THE BUYERS REQUEST FOR REASONS UNKNOWN. ITS UNFORTUNATE THE ORIGINAL HANDLE IS NOT PRESENT AS IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SEEN HOW IT WAS ATTACHED ORIGINALLY. I LIKE THE ODD AND UNUSUAL SO WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD IN MY COLLECTION

CharlesS · 25th January 2011, 02:11 AM

I'm with Battara and David...screams Malay to me, though Moro made or heavily influenced, save the hilt sleeve.

Battara · 25th January 2011, 02:19 AM

It was true that there was trade done between these areas.

Maurice · 25th January 2011, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

MY GUT FEELING IS THE BLADE AND IVORY POMMEL MAY BE OF THE SAME AGE. THE SILVERWORK ON THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD MORE RECENT, THE SCABBARD LOOKS MORE RECENT TOO. THE OLDER SILVER WORK I HAVE SEEN ON ITEMS FROM MALAYSIA AND THE PHILIPPINES TEND TO HAVE A MORE PURE SILVER AND ARE USUALLY THINNER, WORN, CRACKED, BENT, DENTED ECT.
THE SEPARATE GANJA SEEMS TO HAVE THE STRAIGHT LINE FROM THE ORIGINAL ELEPHANTS TRUNK AND THEN IS CUT DOWN AT AN ANGLE AS USUAL. IT GOES INTO THE HOLE WHERE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK IS LOCATED. IF SO THERE IS A BREAK IN THE OUTSIDE CARVING SO THE TWO PARTS DO NOT CONNECT TO COMPLETELY ENCLOSE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK. IF THIS IS SO I THINK THE BLADE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE IN THE NORMAL MANNER. IT WAS LATER MODIFIED PERHAPS BY THE SWORDMAKER BUT MORE LIKELY AT THE BUYERS REQUEST FOR REASONS UNKNOWN. ITS UNFORTUNATE THE ORIGINAL HANDLE IS NOT PRESENT AS IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SEEN HOW IT WAS ATTACHED ORIGINALLY. I LIKE THE ODD AND UNUSUAL SO WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD IN MY COLLECTION

Hi Vandoo,

I don't think at all that the sleeve is a latter addition.
It shows great age in real (maybe the image is misleading for you?), is bent here and there, and also cracked on some places. It isn't that thick as you think, but the sleeve exist of layers of silverwork on top of eachother (decorated bands etc.), which looks like it is made of one thick piece of silver.
But it isn't...Look at the image I attached. You can see on of the band that is loose, and also you can see in the silverwork where the clamp went under the silverwork a long time ago (it is also seen on the other side, so it had two clamps in the past).

The silverwork on the scabbard I don't know and can't say, cause there is no scabbard to my piece...

(probably you are mixing it up with a scabbard in this thread another member added).

Kind Regards,
Maurice

VVV · 25th January 2011, 10:14 AM

Interesting piece!

I go for Peninsular Malaysia too based on:

- the full silver collar.
- no clamp added.
- the "karna tinanding"-feature (which might be later) indicates that it comes more from a "keris" than "kris-culture",
where the owner would appreciate esoteric features like that.

Maurice, please take a closer look to see if you see any signs of the extra trunk being made later?

Michael

24th January 2011, 08:19 PM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Brainteaser... I've got the feeling the origine of my kris will not be solved. It seems that the most knowledgeable people who did study moro swords or Malay kerisses for a long, long time, don't agree with eachother. Always nice when something "not usual" pops up. I discussed it just the past days with a respected and well known dealer, who did also a lot of study on moro stuff. He told me he had seen several moro krisses with repousse work, and he is almost 100% sure that this kris has all the classic moro features, according the pommel, and also the twistcore on the blade. The double elephant hooks indeed are according to him unusual, but the gangja and the quality work is all moro. Probably this is a rare variation of moro sword to him. Thank you for discussing this piece, and if somebody finds some new information which will lead to the origine, please let me know. Regards, Maurice

16th January 2011, 09:33 AM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Digging this old thread up, because I might have new information about the origin of the sundang. According to an European keris collector, who lived several years in the kelantan state of Malaysia, the sundang originates from south Thailand / North east Malaysia. According to him it looks like Lankasuka, regarding the blade, ganja and also the silverwork on the sleeve. As I have no knowledge about the region we are talking here, I hope some of you know more and could confirm or discuss it? Thank you in advance, Maurice

24th January 2011, 10:30 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY GUT FEELING IS THE BLADE AND IVORY POMMEL MAY BE OF THE SAME AGE. THE SILVERWORK ON THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD MORE RECENT, THE SCABBARD LOOKS MORE RECENT TOO. THE OLDER SILVER WORK I HAVE SEEN ON ITEMS FROM MALAYSIA AND THE PHILIPPINES TEND TO HAVE A MORE PURE SILVER AND ARE USUALLY THINNER, WORN, CRACKED, BENT, DENTED ECT. THE SEPARATE GANJA SEEMS TO HAVE THE STRAIGHT LINE FROM THE ORIGINAL ELEPHANTS TRUNK AND THEN IS CUT DOWN AT AN ANGLE AS USUAL. IT GOES INTO THE HOLE WHERE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK IS LOCATED. IF SO THERE IS A BREAK IN THE OUTSIDE CARVING SO THE TWO PARTS DO NOT CONNECT TO COMPLETELY ENCLOSE THE SECOND ELEPHANTS TRUNK. IF THIS IS SO I THINK THE BLADE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE IN THE NORMAL MANNER. IT WAS LATER MODIFIED PERHAPS BY THE SWORDMAKER BUT MORE LIKELY AT THE BUYERS REQUEST FOR REASONS UNKNOWN. ITS UNFORTUNATE THE ORIGINAL HANDLE IS NOT PRESENT AS IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SEEN HOW IT WAS ATTACHED ORIGINALLY. I LIKE THE ODD AND UNUSUAL SO WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD IN MY COLLECTION

25th January 2011, 02:11 AM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I'm with Battara and David...screams Malay to me, though Moro made or heavily influenced, save the hilt sleeve.

25th January 2011, 02:19 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	It was true that there was trade done between these areas.

25th January 2011, 10:14 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting piece! I go for Peninsular Malaysia too based on: - the full silver collar. - no clamp added. - the "karna tinanding"-feature (which might be later) indicates that it comes more from a "keris" than "kris-culture", where the owner would appreciate esoteric features like that. Maurice, please take a closer look to see if you see any signs of the extra trunk being made later? Michael