Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?

Sajen · 13th January 2011, 04:57 PM

Hello Dave,

agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!!

Regards,

Detlef

dave78 · 14th January 2011, 07:29 AM

Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west. I'll use all your valuable tips and clean and preserve the whole keris. This may take awhile, but I'll post pictures when I'm done.

Thanks again for all the expert advice.

David · 14th January 2011, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave78

Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west.

Just to be clear Dave, "cleaning" and "refinishing" are not the same thing. I am less inclined to encourage anyone to "refinish" their keris dress. That would involve sanding, staining and the application of new finish to the wood. It would involve the removal of old patina. Cleaning and oiling/waxing the wood is far less invasive and preserves both the patina and the wood itself.

Mytribalworld · 14th January 2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Dave,

agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!!

Regards,

Detlef

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

may I give an example ? our national museum "Bronbeek" where I once visited the depots where the curator showed me a big part of the collection that was cleaned once where very old swords has turned in completely new looking stuff without patina because of the "cleaning" activety of former curators.

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

David · 14th January 2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

may I give an example ? our national museum "Bronbeek" where I once visited the depots where the curator showed me a big part of the collection that was cleaned once where very old swords has turned in completely new looking stuff without patina because of the "cleaning" activety of former curators.

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

Arjan, of course overly aggressive cleaning can eliminate patina. We must be careful and thoughtful. However i would never encourage someone to leave active rust on a keris blade nor dirt on the blade or dress as these are not patina and can be removed without damaging patina. Of course keris blades for the most part are intended to be maintained and stained to bring out their pamor patterns so i don't think that you can apply the rules of care for, say a mandau to that of a keris. It's apples and oranges really.
As for not having seen the blade yet, this is not so. We all had a chance to look and comment on Dave's new acquisition in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13136
And it is really difficult to do much damage with 0000 steel wool. It will not leave scratches on your blade no matter how hard you try, though i suppose that with some effort it might remove the patina from wood.

Sajen · 14th January 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

real patina you can't clean ? AAHummm?

It suprised me a little that members give advise to "clean" while they haven't seen the keris yet....

don't unterstand me wrong, dirt is dirt and as David mentioned oil cleaning is ok, but be very carefull with other stuff like the mentioned 0000 steelwool.

first look,than think, ( than sleep a night) than think again, that act.

untouched kerisses are getting so enourmous scarce.....

Arjan

Hi Arjan,

the same advice i can give to you: First read, than think and when you need think again before attack someone!

In this case please read the post #44 in this link again:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844

The same advice to read all in this thread i have given to Dave. There you can see that I not general clean all keris and that everybody have take his own desicion how to conserve his keris!

BTW, when you look at the keris (the link have given David) you will see that the sarung of the keris haven't a patina like you may think and a careful polish of the wood (this advice I have given there already) will bring out a better appearance, by this I am sure.

Regards,

Detlef

Maurice · 14th January 2011, 07:46 PM

It wasn't clear for me also, this because I didn't see the thread with images of the keris mentioned.
So I think next time it would be better to place the images of the keris in the thread about the cleaning. Or at least put the link of the other thread in it.

I myself likes the patina on old pieces. Keris or no kerisses. And in my early collection days I did too excessive cleaning, and it was the biggest mistake of my life.
Nowadays when I have a very old piece in hands, but it looks like new because of excessive cleaning by others, all the fun and pleasure suddenly disappears, and even worst, I just dislike the piece because of the "new" appearance.

In fact it is worse. If I have a very old 19th century piece with a lot of patina, and there is a chip of wood somewhere broken which happened recently because of lack of care of former owners, and there is no old patina therefore on the breakoff, it would be hard to keep it in my own collection! But that is just my vision which I need my collectionpieces to meet...

I also don't like dirt on the piece. So the question is, how far are you going with cleaning? Before you know you go to far and some of the patina left.
So if you don't have much experience with it, I would keep it the way it is.

Personally I also think this will be an endless discussion which will come back again and again.

So what is the right thing to do? There are some who would "honour" the keris by treating it the way it was done in the early days. And I respect that fully.
But I am supporting Arjan's vision on this (not because he is Dutch, cause there are a lot of Dutch keris collectors who share your opinion of cleaning)..

Best wishes,
Maurice

Mytribalworld · 14th January 2011, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Arjan,

the same advice i can give to you: First read, than think and when you need think again before attack someone!

In this case please read the post #44 in this link again:http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11844

The same advice to read all in this thread i have given to Dave. There you can see that I not general clean all keris and that everybody have take his own desicion how to conserve his keris!

BTW, when you look at the keris (the link have given David) you will see that the sarung of the keris haven't a patina like you may think and a careful polish of the wood (this advice I have given there already) will bring out a better appearance, by this I am sure.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

it was certainly not mentioned as "attack" so sorry, if it felt like that.
what I only "attacked" was the statement "you can't clean real patina" but this is already answered by David.

indeed I didn't looked on the other thread as I not often visit the keris threads but was "alarmed" by the subject of this thread "

Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina? what is a general question and what is not as easy to answer.

what is just cleaning for one can be polishing and scrubbing for the other
cleaning and cleaning seems to be two as we are all different.

As owner of the object every collector is of course free to do with his objects to do what he wants.As collector/dealer but also restorer, I see the treasurebox of quality weaponery shrinking with the years.
One of the reasons for that shrinking is that the parts are cleaned,exchanged or "repaired" without knowledge. I have see superb scarce bali kerisses looking suddenly different when the handle was exhanged by a fake one ! when I asked about this misbehavior the answer was " well that's normal like we do in keris country"
misglued cracks with superglue,bisonkit etc impossible to restore without breaking/damaging again.
Lately a visit from a customer who had "just cleaned a little" the object I wished I never had sold him.

Of course I know that members of this forum would never do so, but gladly I have taked the oportunity to encourage to be carefull,very carefull.
Only than we can enjoy our stuff and keep collecting also in the future and I hope my son ( now 5 months) also when he is grown up.

regards,

Arjan

Sajen · 14th January 2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Detlef,

it was certainly not mentioned as "attack" so sorry, if it felt like that.
what I only "attacked" was the statement "you can't clean real patina" but this is already answered by David.

indeed I didn't looked on the other thread as I not often visit the keris threads but was "alarmed" by the subject of this thread "

Arjan,

of course i have felt under attack when you have given me the advice that i have to look, than think, and so on. And special with the background that i have had the feeling that you byself haven't read all carefully and you don't know which keris is the one about we write here.

I am not resentful and naturally take your "Sorry".

Keep in mind that I have a great understanding of the respect you have for patina and that i have had many times an internal battle in my mind to "clean" a sarung of a keris (look post #44 in the other thread) and sometimes i have decided to keep the patination (look the picture) but in case of the keris in question i am sure that it only can look better when the sarung is cleaned. And when Dave decide to clean it and will post pictures of the result i am sure that you will agree.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th January 2011, 03:01 AM

This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice.

The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value".

Value in this context I interpret as meaning:-

" can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?"

The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers.

If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not.

If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation.

However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct.

Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good.

If that means leaving as found, leave it as found.

If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder.

If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

dave78 · 15th January 2011, 11:35 AM

There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested:

David · 15th January 2011, 02:45 PM

This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy.
However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions.
Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.

15th January 2011, 11:35 AM	#11
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	There are so many different opinions here now, I'm not really sure what to do. One of the things I like most about my keris is that it looks its age (at least 60 years old). I think what I'm most concerned about is, if I do clean it, it will lose the appeal that only comes with natural age. I'm going to have to think this through again. Here's the pictures again if anyone is still interested: Attached Images

13th January 2011, 04:57 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Dave, agree with Henk and David. Do you have read the thread which I have given you by link in up? Real patina you can't clean!! Regards, Detlef

14th January 2011, 07:29 AM	#2
dave78 Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 6	Well since you all agree, and, as was pointed out, because of the cultural differences, the "rules" regarding refinishing are also different as they are here in the west. I'll use all your valuable tips and clean and preserve the whole keris. This may take awhile, but I'll post pictures when I'm done. Thanks again for all the expert advice.

14th January 2011, 07:46 PM	#7
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	It wasn't clear for me also, this because I didn't see the thread with images of the keris mentioned. So I think next time it would be better to place the images of the keris in the thread about the cleaning. Or at least put the link of the other thread in it. I myself likes the patina on old pieces. Keris or no kerisses. And in my early collection days I did too excessive cleaning, and it was the biggest mistake of my life. Nowadays when I have a very old piece in hands, but it looks like new because of excessive cleaning by others, all the fun and pleasure suddenly disappears, and even worst, I just dislike the piece because of the "new" appearance. In fact it is worse. If I have a very old 19th century piece with a lot of patina, and there is a chip of wood somewhere broken which happened recently because of lack of care of former owners, and there is no old patina therefore on the breakoff, it would be hard to keep it in my own collection! But that is just my vision which I need my collectionpieces to meet... I also don't like dirt on the piece. So the question is, how far are you going with cleaning? Before you know you go to far and some of the patina left. So if you don't have much experience with it, I would keep it the way it is. Personally I also think this will be an endless discussion which will come back again and again. So what is the right thing to do? There are some who would "honour" the keris by treating it the way it was done in the early days. And I respect that fully. But I am supporting Arjan's vision on this (not because he is Dutch, cause there are a lot of Dutch keris collectors who share your opinion of cleaning).. Best wishes, Maurice

15th January 2011, 03:01 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	This is an opinion, and it is not to be construed as advice. The question originally put in this thread incorporated the concept of "value". Value in this context I interpret as meaning:- " can I get more for this thing if I clean it, or if I don't clean it, and if I clean it, how much should I clean it to maximise value to a potential buyer?" The answer to these questions lays in the nature of the market into which the object will be sold, and to a finer degree, the needs of the identified buyers. If the market prefers the idea of antiquity and associates that with a modicum of dirt and obvious age, then that is what the canny seller will provide, be it genuine or not. If the market prefers that a traditional object should be presented in as close a form to possible as that which is regarded as correct in the society from which the object originates, then the canny seller will do his best to provide that societally correct presentation. However, if we adopt the point of view of a collector, or student, of the same object, then my personal feeling is that whatever makes the individual happy is correct. Forget market value and simply do what makes you feel good. If that means leaving as found, leave it as found. If it means a total restoration, do that, with the caution that you find out how to do this properly before you pick up the angle grinder. If it means adopting some approach that falls between these two extremes, that's what you do. When all is said and done, only one person needs to live with the object:- you.

15th January 2011, 02:45 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	This is, of course, very good advice Alan, some i would support. Ultimately it is always the owner who must make themselves happy. However, if we get back to the specific question that Dave posted, that would be "Does cleaning a keris hurt overall value or patina?" I do understand your reference to different markets quite well, but i would have to say that from what i have understood from the attitudes of the keris community in general (if we can ever generalize such a thing) is that as long as you don't also clean away patina or damage or over clean the blade in the process the answer is no, it will not hurt the value. And i believe whole-heartedly that a careful and well thought out cleaning does not hurt patina, but can in fact enhance it, so i find this part of Dave's question less subjective than the part about value. Frankly i'm not sure what the antique community at large thinks of this or, for that matter, what the appraisers at the Antiques Road Show would say about it all, but for me personally that is not the market that matters much in making these decisions. Ultimate Dave is, of course, welcome to leave his keris "as is", but he did come to us and ask our opinions and he has most certainly received some.