Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

fernando · 4th January 2011, 01:39 PM

Hi Manolete

,
I guess i follow GC's reasoning.
The mark adopted by Julián del Rey was a doggy (perrillo), not so similar in shape to a (Passau) wolf.
Don't think both symbols could be one only

.

.

Rikkn · 4th January 2011, 02:24 PM

I looked through the doggy marks also, what does it all mean ? I will take pictures of the whole sword & scabbard & post them in a little while.

Rikkn · 4th January 2011, 02:48 PM

More pictures. Blade is 28" long, overall sword is 34.5 " long. Blade tapers from 5/8 " to 1/8" just before tip. Scabbard is 30" long, has the number 19 over the screw near opening.

cornelistromp · 4th January 2011, 04:11 PM

Hi,

I don't see any running wolf mark, but see clearly the woording TOLEDO,
with a proper 17thC E and proper 17thC D.
the long olive shaped pommel together with the non functional pas d'ane ( 18thc size, you will break your finger if you put one through the pas d'ane) together with the rococo diamond shaped chiseling at the pommel foot and spirally fluted grip as seen on 1750 silver hilted small swords makes me date date the hilt in the second part of the 18thC, 1750-1800. the blade is probably 100 years older.

with the shell guards it can be a late 18thC (Spanish?) marine officer small sword.

Best,

fernando · 4th January 2011, 05:14 PM

Very good and solid impressions Jasper.
By the way, the mentioning of the running wolf mark by Celtan was only a part of his dissertation ... not that he was seeing it.
The scabbard must be a much later addition, right?

Atlantia · 4th January 2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Very good and solid impressions Jasper.
By the way, the mentioning of the running wolf mark by Celtan was only a part of his dissertation ... not that he was seeing it.
The scabbard must be a much later addition, right?

The scabbard looks decidedly 19thC, later part at that.

celtan · 4th January 2011, 11:21 PM

Hi Guys,

The scabbard is obviously late 19th C.

The use of the Wolf/Dog by spanish armourers as mark of a quality blade in the 15th C, long before Passau and subsequently Solingen, is very well documented. It is also well established the presence of both German armourers in Toledo, and later that of Spanish Armourers in Passau and Solingen.

The early armourers were mostly spanish muslims, like famed Julian del Rey. It is said that they couldn't have used a dog as a quality symbol, because in their culture, a dog was considered a dirty, lower type of animal. It is thus more likely that the symbol represented instead a wolf, and that subsequent folklore instead denigrated it to a "perrillo", or literally a "doggy". The Spanish do have an ingrained tendency to mock everything.

In fact, Don Enrique de Leguina states in his work that the German and Spanish marks could not be distinguished from each other: "Lleva la marca, rellena de cobre, llamada en España del «perrillo», y en Alemania «del lobo»: la primera atribuida al célebre espadero español Julián del Rey, y la segunda a espaderos de Passau y de Solingen, sin que hasta ahora haya sido posible distinguir en absoluto unas de otras"

Julian del Rey shows this mark only on his _cutting_ swords, it has been proposed that the mark itself was originally a quality blade seal applied by the Sword Makers Guild. Indeed, Julian's usual trademark was a cross.

Please refer to . LAMARCA DEL PERRILLO DEL ESPADERO ESPAÑOL
JULIAN DEL REY by J. J. Rodriguez Lorente.

Regarding the pas d'ane, I have owned similar swords to this one and theirs were fully functional, allowing me to insert my large fingers trough their openings, stablizing my grip on the sword. From my end, this one looks identical to those.

BTW, olive type pommels were used in Spain since the mid 16th C. The blade "feels" 17th C to me.

The double clamshell guard was seen in Spain from around the times of Gustavus Adolphus (Mid to late 17th C), my suspicion being they were introduced as an adaptation from the german / Pappenheimer's guard.

Taking everything into account, plus all the spanish swords I have handled at museums, I'd still place this one around 1720.

Last but not least, our "Maestre Perrillo" was only one of many spanish armourers using the doggy/wolf mark. Rememeber, in Spain there were about 15 major armouries making swords. Just check the enclosed image.

'Nando, glad that you're following my dissertation..!

: )

4th January 2011, 01:39 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Manolete , I guess i follow GC's reasoning. The mark adopted by Julián del Rey was a doggy (perrillo), not so similar in shape to a (Passau) wolf. Don't think both symbols could be one only . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 4th January 2011 at 01:51 PM.

4th January 2011, 02:48 PM	#3
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	More pictures. Blade is 28" long, overall sword is 34.5 " long. Blade tapers from 5/8 " to 1/8" just before tip. Scabbard is 30" long, has the number 19 over the screw near opening. Attached Images

4th January 2011, 11:21 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, The scabbard is obviously late 19th C. The use of the Wolf/Dog by spanish armourers as mark of a quality blade in the 15th C, long before Passau and subsequently Solingen, is very well documented. It is also well established the presence of both German armourers in Toledo, and later that of Spanish Armourers in Passau and Solingen. The early armourers were mostly spanish muslims, like famed Julian del Rey. It is said that they couldn't have used a dog as a quality symbol, because in their culture, a dog was considered a dirty, lower type of animal. It is thus more likely that the symbol represented instead a wolf, and that subsequent folklore instead denigrated it to a "perrillo", or literally a "doggy". The Spanish do have an ingrained tendency to mock everything. In fact, Don Enrique de Leguina states in his work that the German and Spanish marks could not be distinguished from each other: "Lleva la marca, rellena de cobre, llamada en España del «perrillo», y en Alemania «del lobo»: la primera atribuida al célebre espadero español Julián del Rey, y la segunda a espaderos de Passau y de Solingen, sin que hasta ahora haya sido posible distinguir en absoluto unas de otras" Julian del Rey shows this mark only on his _cutting_ swords, it has been proposed that the mark itself was originally a quality blade seal applied by the Sword Makers Guild. Indeed, Julian's usual trademark was a cross. Please refer to . LAMARCA DEL PERRILLO DEL ESPADERO ESPAÑOL JULIAN DEL REY by J. J. Rodriguez Lorente. Regarding the pas d'ane, I have owned similar swords to this one and theirs were fully functional, allowing me to insert my large fingers trough their openings, stablizing my grip on the sword. From my end, this one looks identical to those. BTW, olive type pommels were used in Spain since the mid 16th C. The blade "feels" 17th C to me. The double clamshell guard was seen in Spain from around the times of Gustavus Adolphus (Mid to late 17th C), my suspicion being they were introduced as an adaptation from the german / Pappenheimer's guard. Taking everything into account, plus all the spanish swords I have handled at museums, I'd still place this one around 1720. Last but not least, our "Maestre Perrillo" was only one of many spanish armourers using the doggy/wolf mark. Rememeber, in Spain there were about 15 major armouries making swords. Just check the enclosed image. 'Nando, glad that you're following my dissertation..! : ) Attached Images

4th January 2011, 02:24 PM	#2
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	I looked through the doggy marks also, what does it all mean ? I will take pictures of the whole sword & scabbard & post them in a little while.

4th January 2011, 04:11 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	Hi, I don't see any running wolf mark, but see clearly the woording TOLEDO, with a proper 17thC E and proper 17thC D. the long olive shaped pommel together with the non functional pas d'ane ( 18thc size, you will break your finger if you put one through the pas d'ane) together with the rococo diamond shaped chiseling at the pommel foot and spirally fluted grip as seen on 1750 silver hilted small swords makes me date date the hilt in the second part of the 18thC, 1750-1800. the blade is probably 100 years older. with the shell guards it can be a late 18thC (Spanish?) marine officer small sword. Best,

4th January 2011, 05:14 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very good and solid impressions Jasper. By the way, the mentioning of the running wolf mark by Celtan was only a part of his dissertation ... not that he was seeing it. The scabbard must be a much later addition, right?