What is the relationship between a keris and its hilt in the ancient culture?

David · 28th December 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

However, I still have a hard time imagining the a Tuban-Majapahit tilam upih keris with udan mas pamor, having a slender build, and radiating a dainty aura (or pasikutan demes), back in its time it was being dressed wearing a fearsome raksasha hilt. It's kind of like eating rye bread with guacamole sauce and bumbu pecel

hmmm....i must say that i have never considered dhapur tilam upih to be particularly dainty...

Neo · 29th December 2010, 11:39 AM

OK, pick a dapur that you consider dainty or pasikutan demes ... do you think that in the past they would dress that in raksasha hilt? I have totally no idea, my perceptions are far from concrete at the moment ...

By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

David · 29th December 2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

Should i assume that since you mention Majapahit that you are asking specifically about Javanese keris?
The best way to determine this would be to view keris that were collected very early on (see collections in Dutch museums), though don't think you will find any that were collected quite that early.

PenangsangII · 30th December 2010, 09:46 AM

the rasaksa hilt may symbolize the purpose and the strength of the blade IMHO, and not a representation of "what or who" is in the blade. However, the pamor, the perabut and dhapur may also serve the above as well.....

Neo · 30th December 2010, 09:50 AM

Yes, Javanese kerises. Does the Dutch museum have pictures online? Will appreciate the URLs. Thanks!!

Neo · 30th December 2010, 10:06 AM

Thanks, Penangsang II. By the way, are raksashas and deities always the theme for Hindu-JAVANESE kerises from sepuh era? Weren't there floral or simpler, non-figure designs similar to Balinese bebondolan or Javanese Yudawinatan in the past?

David · 30th December 2010, 01:59 PM

Neo, you can look at some old collections here, but they don't show everything and the collecting dates only seem to go back as far as 1700 or so.
http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...=&culturenode=

A. G. Maisey · 1st January 2011, 02:00 AM

Neo, you have specified a particular period in your question, and for this period it is probable that no answer can be given that could be supported.

The history of the keris extends over a period greater than 1000 years.

Even if we limit our enquiries to early Jawa/Bali a number of possible answers can apply.

For instance, in the Sang Hyang Siksakandang Karesian manuscript from 16th century Sunda weapons are categorised according to whether one is a noble, a farmer, or a priest. Only the nobles had kerises, and the dewa that applied to a nobles weapon was a raksasa, because these weapons were used to kill; a farmers weapons dewa was Detya because the farmer provided sustenance; a priests weapons dewa was Danawa.

At other times and in other places the relationship between the hilt and the blade can differ.

When we consider a later period, and we look at , say, Ganesha as a hilt figure, that does not mean that Ganesha is actually in the hilt, nor in the blade. In Bali-Hindu thought a figure of a dewa is only a recepticle for the dewa to occupy if the dewa is called and chooses to come. In fact, the place for the dewa to occupy need not necessarily be in the form of the dewa, the form given is only to help the human mind concentrate on that entity. When the mind is sufficiently advanced, no figure nor point of reference is required.

My earlier post indicating a protective function is probably accurate, but only in one context.

Many possibilities, very few certainties.

29th December 2010, 11:39 AM	#2
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	OK, pick a dapur that you consider dainty or pasikutan demes ... do you think that in the past they would dress that in raksasha hilt? I have totally no idea, my perceptions are far from concrete at the moment ... By the way, do they always use raksasha themes in the sepuh (Majapahit and older) era? What are the other popular themes back then?

30th December 2010, 09:46 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the rasaksa hilt may symbolize the purpose and the strength of the blade IMHO, and not a representation of "what or who" is in the blade. However, the pamor, the perabut and dhapur may also serve the above as well.....

30th December 2010, 09:50 AM	#5
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Yes, Javanese kerises. Does the Dutch museum have pictures online? Will appreciate the URLs. Thanks!!

30th December 2010, 10:06 AM	#6
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Thanks, Penangsang II. By the way, are raksashas and deities always the theme for Hindu-JAVANESE kerises from sepuh era? Weren't there floral or simpler, non-figure designs similar to Balinese bebondolan or Javanese Yudawinatan in the past?

30th December 2010, 01:59 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Neo, you can look at some old collections here, but they don't show everything and the collecting dates only seem to go back as far as 1700 or so. http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...=&culturenode=

1st January 2011, 02:00 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Neo, you have specified a particular period in your question, and for this period it is probable that no answer can be given that could be supported. The history of the keris extends over a period greater than 1000 years. Even if we limit our enquiries to early Jawa/Bali a number of possible answers can apply. For instance, in the Sang Hyang Siksakandang Karesian manuscript from 16th century Sunda weapons are categorised according to whether one is a noble, a farmer, or a priest. Only the nobles had kerises, and the dewa that applied to a nobles weapon was a raksasa, because these weapons were used to kill; a farmers weapons dewa was Detya because the farmer provided sustenance; a priests weapons dewa was Danawa. At other times and in other places the relationship between the hilt and the blade can differ. When we consider a later period, and we look at , say, Ganesha as a hilt figure, that does not mean that Ganesha is actually in the hilt, nor in the blade. In Bali-Hindu thought a figure of a dewa is only a recepticle for the dewa to occupy if the dewa is called and chooses to come. In fact, the place for the dewa to occupy need not necessarily be in the form of the dewa, the form given is only to help the human mind concentrate on that entity. When the mind is sufficiently advanced, no figure nor point of reference is required. My earlier post indicating a protective function is probably accurate, but only in one context. Many possibilities, very few certainties.