Possibly ethnographic gun, of European form

RDGAC · 26th December 2010, 09:27 PM

And more pics.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2011, 05:56 AM

Bump!

There must be somebody out there who has a book on British guns. Why no issuance, acceptance or proof marks on this? Trade gun?

Martin Lubojacky · 1st February 2011, 08:26 AM

Hello,

I saw simmilar guns, home made copies ("made on knee") of European guns in Nigeria (not everybody has kalashnikov here). And they were even more rough. One bought my friend in Jos a souvenier and another one I saw in hunter´s hut in a village near Bidda.
Nothing tribal like e.g. Kabyle musket etc., just old home made gun - but functional. Nevertheless tut this could be coincidence, I think such gun could come from anywhere.
Martin

Atlantia · 1st February 2011, 09:43 AM

TBH, I just didn't want to be the bearer of ill tidings again.
This type of gun show up fairly regularly across the UK. Supposedly from various sources, but mostly retailed by a rather 'well known' trader in the UK.
Some of them have been 'rebuilt' from separate parts, many have at the very least been 'restored' prior to coming to the UK. Including the addition of newly made replacement parts.
Yours has a newly made replacement trigger guard and some screws at least.
However, having examined a fair few of these guns, I am of the opinion that some of the main parts are in fact of relatively recent or indeed very recent manufacture.
Which perhaps should not suprise, as they are probobly still used in some places.
As Martin says, they are of 'native' manufacture.

Here is a picture of one selection of examples in a catalogue from 2001.

They were sold in grades ranging from completely 'restored', down to basically complete but needing some light work.
Yours was probobly sold missing a couple of screws and the new owner just put them in.
To be honest, the ones like you have are the better buy if you can finish them yourself.
The completely restored ones tended to be overly 'cooked' IMHO.

The same trader also sold 'sporting guns' from I think Nepal for a few years. There was also the huge pile of similar weapons from the 'Royal armoury of Nepal'. There are some pictures of piles of them floating about, I'll see if I can find you one.

Atlantia · 1st February 2011, 12:36 PM

Here's a picture.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2011, 03:20 PM

Gene and Martin, thank you so much guys!
While we all probably feel the same, and dont want to present less than heartening news on someones acquisition, it is better to have the straight story. It is all a learning process, and I appreciate you guys stepping up to share your experience.
All the best,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 2nd February 2011, 01:11 AM

I did see this post earlier but though I would wait and see what other comments surfaced. I have to agree with both Gene and Martin. The obvious discrepancies are the shape of the forewood, the barrel band with the ring on it, the hammer with incorrect "throw" and the strange looking ram rod.

Without being unkind, I would keep it as parts, or maybe a curiosity of backyard manufacture.
I was once told by an old collector friend of mine that if an item does not look right, then it probably isn't. A good maxim for all collectors IMHO.
By the way Gene, how much for the firewood in the pic??

26th December 2010, 09:27 PM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	And more pics. Attached Images

1st February 2011, 09:43 AM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	TBH, I just didn't want to be the bearer of ill tidings again. This type of gun show up fairly regularly across the UK. Supposedly from various sources, but mostly retailed by a rather 'well known' trader in the UK. Some of them have been 'rebuilt' from separate parts, many have at the very least been 'restored' prior to coming to the UK. Including the addition of newly made replacement parts. Yours has a newly made replacement trigger guard and some screws at least. However, having examined a fair few of these guns, I am of the opinion that some of the main parts are in fact of relatively recent or indeed very recent manufacture. Which perhaps should not suprise, as they are probobly still used in some places. As Martin says, they are of 'native' manufacture. Here is a picture of one selection of examples in a catalogue from 2001. They were sold in grades ranging from completely 'restored', down to basically complete but needing some light work. Yours was probobly sold missing a couple of screws and the new owner just put them in. To be honest, the ones like you have are the better buy if you can finish them yourself. The completely restored ones tended to be overly 'cooked' IMHO. The same trader also sold 'sporting guns' from I think Nepal for a few years. There was also the huge pile of similar weapons from the 'Royal armoury of Nepal'. There are some pictures of piles of them floating about, I'll see if I can find you one. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 1st February 2011 at 01:51 PM.

1st February 2011, 12:36 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Here's a picture. Attached Images

1st February 2011, 05:56 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,353	Bump! There must be somebody out there who has a book on British guns. Why no issuance, acceptance or proof marks on this? Trade gun?

1st February 2011, 08:26 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hello, I saw simmilar guns, home made copies ("made on knee") of European guns in Nigeria (not everybody has kalashnikov here). And they were even more rough. One bought my friend in Jos a souvenier and another one I saw in hunter´s hut in a village near Bidda. Nothing tribal like e.g. Kabyle musket etc., just old home made gun - but functional. Nevertheless tut this could be coincidence, I think such gun could come from anywhere. Martin

1st February 2011, 03:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,353	Gene and Martin, thank you so much guys! While we all probably feel the same, and dont want to present less than heartening news on someones acquisition, it is better to have the straight story. It is all a learning process, and I appreciate you guys stepping up to share your experience. All the best, Jim

2nd February 2011, 01:11 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,793	I did see this post earlier but though I would wait and see what other comments surfaced. I have to agree with both Gene and Martin. The obvious discrepancies are the shape of the forewood, the barrel band with the ring on it, the hammer with incorrect "throw" and the strange looking ram rod. Without being unkind, I would keep it as parts, or maybe a curiosity of backyard manufacture. I was once told by an old collector friend of mine that if an item does not look right, then it probably isn't. A good maxim for all collectors IMHO. By the way Gene, how much for the firewood in the pic??