Sulawesi (toraja?) keris

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Don't worry Laowang i have scannered the page.
Thanks for information

Thank you Marco for this interesting picture. Although it is not very clear, it shows 2 important aspects:
. The tradition of owning krisses and wearing them during ceremonies was well established in the Toraja society before 1950.
. The krisses shown on this picture (and mine with the lady) look very similar to the old royal krisses from South Sulawesi and Sumbawa and the hilts seem to depict Hindu heroes, so my kris and the one from Marco (which are more common and recent) do not follow the traditional design.
These original gold krisses are very difficult to find even in South Sulawesi as confirmed by Detlef, and it seems to me that they had not been made since a long time may be because of their Hindu attributes.
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

. The tradition of owning krisses and wearing them during ceremonies was well established in the Toraja society before 1950.

This is a good shot for establish timeline. It is also interesting because the keris aren't actually being worn here, they are attached to the sides of the carrier.

Originally Posted by Jean

. The krisses shown on this picture (and mine with the lady) look very similar to the old royal krisses from South Sulawesi and Sumbawa and the hilts seem to depict Hindu heroes, so my kris and the one from Marco (which are more common and recent) do not follow the traditional design.

Since they do not follow the design seen here are they still traditional Toraja keris. Have you both IDed them as such based on place of purchase or some kind of provenance?

Originally Posted by Jean

These original gold krisses are very difficult to find even in South Sulawesi as confirmed by Detlef, and it seems to me that they had not been made since a long time may be because of their Hindu attributes.

AFAIK the Torajan populous is, on the outside at least, about 82% Christian and only 6% Islamic, so it seems unlikely that they would ban Hindu deities bases on Islamic prohibition of form. And in spite of their conversion to Christianity they have held on to many of their animistic traditions.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

1. Since they do not follow the design seen here are they still traditional Toraja keris. Have you both IDed them as such based on place of purchase or some kind of provenance?

2.AFAIK the Torajan populous is, on the outside at least, about 82% Christian and only 6% Islamic, so it seems unlikely that they would ban Hindu deities bases on Islamic prohibition of form. And in spite of their conversion to Christianity they have held on to many of their animistic traditions.

1. They still basically follow the original design but with some variations (shape of the hilt and sampir) and a lower manufacturing standard. My impression is that they are modern Toraja krisses (20th century) and the manufacturing tradition of the original ones seems to have been lost unless somebody could show us the contrary (except replicas like mine of course). I bought my "Toraja" piece from an antique dealer in Jakarta in 1998, and I just knew that it was used and originated from Sulawesi but not more than that.

2. I don't mean the Toraja people but these gold krisses were probably made in South Sulawesi and exported to the Toraja area, so after the conversion of the Bugis and Makassarese to Islam at the beginning of the 17th century, these krisses with Hindu features probably became less popular among the Muslim population except those made for the Toraja market as they remained animists. Again this is based on the observation that these krisses can't be found anymore in South Sulawesi (except probably some pusakas in the noble families) but are still present among the Toraja elite.

[A. G. Maisey]

This morning my wife and I visited the friend I mentioned in post # 38.

I asked her why it was that when we see pictures of Toraja gatherings and a keris is present, it is now almost always with a woman, rather than with a man.

Does this mean that for Toraja people the keris is not now a male symbol and if so, was it ever a male symbol for Toraja people?

I did not know it before this morning, but apparently this woman comes from minor royalty, so I am assuming, I hope correctly, that what she has told me has some element of accuracy in it.

The full conversation used a couple of hours and we were given lots and lots of irrelevant information, but the essence of her answer in respect of keris was this:-

1) In times past, perhaps in her great grandparent's time, the keris was identified with men, because men were the hunters and the warriors.

2) In the present day the keris is recognized as a part of cultural inheritance, but it is no longer the specific preserve of men, no longer associated directly with men, but where it is an heirloom, a pusaka, it is associated with the family. Within a family it might fall to a man, or to his wife to look after the keris, and if it is worn, it is mostly worn by the woman as a dress ornament that is associated with culture. Nothing more.

3) In her own family, and in most other families that she knows, the last two generations have not passed on any of the knowledge of culture and family history. She is of the opinion that WWII destroyed the continuation of culture and that independence and the entry to modern times helped, because the old people saw that the younger generations were not interested in what had come before, so they did not try to teach them, but if a question was asked, only then would they answer.

4) As things stand right now, the only people who truly understand the culture are specialists and people in universities. In a normal family the family keris has become just an ornament that is used sometimes in traditional dress.

This woman has lived in Australia for about 20 years, but she spends three months every year back with her family in Torajaland. She appears to be completely in touch with the present day situation there.

She knew absolutely nothing of the esoteric side of the keris as it applies in Jawa and Bali

[Sajen]

Come across by my last trip to Indonesia again a Toraja/Gowa keris of lower quality but obviously very old or at last heavy used. I wasn't able to buy it (what I would like to do ) but I get the permission to take photos and to show them here. Enjoy!

[Marcokeris]

Very interesting and nice pics.Thanks

[Rick]

Thank you Detlef .

I am coming to the conclusion that for the peoples of Toraja at least the actual keris itself was much more a vehicle for the dress than an esoteric object .

The face of the figure reminds me of a funeral mask .