Sulawesi (toraja?) keris

Jean · 5th December 2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=2033618

Please note that the saleroom notice from Christie says that:
"The entry should read: Sulawesi, Bugis, gold keris" so this is not a Toraja kris.

David · 5th December 2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Please note that the saleroom notice from Christie says that:
"The entry should read: Sulawesi, Bugis, gold keris" so this is not a Toraja kris.

Yes Jean, i did note that and was going to throw it in with my argument, but forgot, so thank you.
So what exactly is a Torajan keris then. What provenance leads us to believe that either yours or Marcos originated in this very specific culture?

Edit: Oh, i see what happened there. I posted the wrong link in that place. I had meant to post this Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toraja
I will also amend that post, thanks, but your remark about this particular keris from Christies still holds true...

Jean · 6th December 2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Jean, i did note that and was going to throw it in with my argument, but forgot, so thank you.
So what exactly is a Torajan keris then. What provenance leads us to believe that either yours or Marcos originated in this very specific culture?

Edit: Oh, i see what happened there. I posted the wrong link in that place. I had meant to post this Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toraja
I will also amend that post, thanks, but your remark about this particular keris from Christies still holds true...

Hello David,
Sorry for the late reply, I was travelling today.
I don't know much about Toraja krisses but 2 main issues:
. The kris was present and an important symbol at least within the Toraja noble population until recently, and I know of 2 Torajan people who owned a gold kris pusaka during my stay in Kalimantan in the 1990's, unfortunately I could not see the pieces (one was stolen, and the other kept in a bank safe!).
. To me the genuine Toraja krisses are derived from the old royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/Bima like the specimen from Christie's but the craftsmanship is much inferior, the hilt seems to depict a Toraja ancestor rather than an Hindu hero, and the sampir has a similar shape to the Bugis krisses. I attach the picture of a good replica of a royal South Sulawesi kris so you can see the difference with the Toraja kris from Marco and mine.
Best regards
Jean

David · 6th December 2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I don't know much about Toraja krisses but 2 main issues:
. The kris was present and an important symbol at least within the Toraja noble population until recently, and I know of 2 Torajan people who owned a gold kris pusaka during my stay in Kalimantan in the 1990's, unfortunately I could not see the pieces (one was stolen, and the other kept in a bank safe!).
. To me the genuine Toraja krisses are derived from the old royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/Bima like the specimen from Christie's but the craftsmanship is much inferior, the hilt seems to depict a Toraja ancestor rather than an Hindu hero, and the sampir has a similar shape to the Bugis krisses. I attach the picture of a good replica of a royal South Sulawesi kris so you can see the difference with the Toraja kris from Marco and mine.

Perhaps then the keris in Toraja remained in the sphere of noble families only. But still, you say you never actually set eyes on these gold pusaka, so how do you know that they are indigenous Toraja keris and not from some other culture in Sulawesi, Java or elsewhere (Toraja nobles were know to marry nobles from outside their culture on occassion) ? How do you know what quality there were compared to a royal South Sulawesi keris?
Here are the questions i am not hearing answers to:
1. Why don't the 3 Torajan warriors from the 1930 photograph have keris amongst their weapons?
2. Why is it mainly women who seem to me carrying keris in the ceremonies i have shown in both photos and videos when the keris is for the most part a male dominated cultural symbol throughout most of the rest of Indonesia?
3. What evidence do we have that the keris was an important cultural item in Toraja pre, let's say, 1970? 1940? 1909?
4. None of the keris that i can spot in any of the photos or videos seem to be dressed in a similar fashion to either Jean's or Marco's keris. Why?

David · 6th December 2010, 09:12 PM

Thanks for the image Jean. Is that off the internet because i missed that one. Much in the same dress mode as yours i would say, so strike my question #4 and change "none" to "most"...

Jean · 6th December 2010, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the image Jean. Is that off the internet because i missed that one. Much in the same dress mode as yours i would say, so strike my question #4 and change "none" to "most"...

Hello David,

I scanned this image from a Sulawesi touristic guide (Periplus) published in 1995. It looks a real gold kris and is more similar to the royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/ Bima.
Best regards
Jean

David · 6th December 2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,

I scanned this image from a Sulawesi touristic guide (Periplus) published in 1995. It looks a real gold kris and is more similar to the royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/ Bima.
Best regards
Jean

Yes, i have a feeling that this type of keris dress that we are associating with Toraja really originates in Makassar.

Jean · 6th December 2010, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps then the keris in Toraja remained in the sphere of noble families only. But still, you say you never actually set eyes on these gold pusaka, so how do you know that they are indigenous Toraja keris and not from some other culture in Sulawesi, Java or elsewhere (Toraja nobles were know to marry nobles from outside their culture on occassion) ? How do you know what quality there were compared to a royal South Sulawesi keris?
Here are the questions i am not hearing answers to:
1. Why don't the 3 Torajan warriors from the 1930 photograph have keris amongst their weapons?
2. Why is it mainly women who seem to me carrying keris in the ceremonies i have shown in both photos and videos when the keris is for the most part a male dominated cultural symbol throughout most of the rest of Indonesia?
3. What evidence do we have that the keris was an important cultural item in Toraja pre, let's say, 1970? 1940? 1909?
4. None of the keris that i can spot in any of the photos or videos seem to be dressed in a similar fashion to either Jean's or Marco's keris. Why?

Hello David,
I will try to reply but have reached my limits so please consider my comments as personal and uncontrolled opinions only....
I did not actually see the gold krisses from the 2 Toraja gentlemen indeed but saw 1 or 2 pieces in a local museum which from memory were very similar to mine.
Yes, the blades of these krisses were possibly imported especially for the high quality ones, but note the large similarities and peculiar features of the blade from Marco and mine. I personally think that the sheaths & hilts were made locally as they are different from those from South Sulawesi which all have burung style hilts especially.
Question 1. To me the kris rather seems to have been a ceremonial weapon among the Toraja so it has not much to do with a warrior attire. And look at these guys, do they look like nobles or commoners?
Question 2. I have no idea why the women wore the krisses and not the men on the pictures but in the 2 cases which I know, they were clearly the property of the patriarch and passed from father to son AFAIK.
Question3. No idea especially because the Torajas were not well known until the 20th century.
Question 4. Besides my additional picture, the 2 "gold" krisses worn by women on one of your pictures look similar to mine although we cannot see the details. The videos are all recent and the girls wear tourist krisses so I won't rely on them... I will try to find other pictures or references.

Is there any member originating from Sulawesi who could tell us more?
Best regards
Jean

David · 7th December 2010, 02:26 AM

I hope you understand, Jean, that i have no "horse in this race", so to speak. I am just trying to sort out fact from conjecture and get a better grasp on the keris culture of Toraja and what it means. I also never intended that you be the only one to answer all my questions. They are not directed specifically at you, but at the community here as a whole, so i do indeed hope that others here can fill in the spaces when our own personal knowledge and research has run dry.
It seems obvious that the Torajan culture has its own specific take on the keris. As we know, in most Indonesian cultures the keris is, among other things, a symbol of manhood and lineage and is for the most part the provence of the men in the society. Patrems exist in these cultures, but they seem the exception, not the rule. From what i can see in these photos and videos it is quite the opposite story in Toraja. Toraja does not have a patriarchal society. Unlike other areas of Indonesia lineage is bilateral, so children inherit from both sides of the family. Women own property just as men do.
Even once the keris become a ceremonial weapon in Java i believe it would still be worn by a warrior because of the everything else it means within that society. It is possible that the keris was never a true weapon in Toraja, but then i would imagine that it came into their culture somewhat late on the general timeline of keris history. As for your question about the status level of the 3 old warriors, it may well be so that they are "commoners". Of course, in most areas with keris culture the keris has trickled down to commoner status level. Every man, even a commoner, would strive to own a keris. Then we must ask if this is not the case in Toraja, who was Marco's keris made for, because it certainly does not seem to be made on the level of quality and materials that would be worthy of a noble. I would think that if it were not made for a commoner, if only nobles in Toraja own keris, then Marco's most likely was intended for the tourist market. Yours, being of a higher quality with gold seems more likely to have had a different intention.
I don't know how you can tell what kind of keris the girls are carrying in the wedding video. The women in the dance video seem to be carrying props, not real keris at all. The keris in the funeral rituals look real enough, but it's impossible to tell without handling them. But these are real ceremonies in these videos even if they are open to the public. They are, unfortunately, all we have to rely on for now for a look at the current state of keris culture in Toraja.

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2010, 03:49 AM

I have almost nothing of worth to add to this discussion at this time.

However, I do know a woman who comes from Tanah Toraja, quite well. She's a close friend of my wife and we exchange social visits. She has mentioned to me that she has her family's keris.

At the moment she is away from home, and I will be away myself as of next Saturday, but I'll follow this matter up when I get back, and I may be able to shed a little light on the subject.

As for the "wedding keris" business, I guess a "wedding keris" is any keris that that has been used as a dress item at a wedding. I know a bloke in Bali who almost bankrupted himself putting together the most beautiful keris I've seen , for his wedding. Gold hilt and scabbard set with an enormous number of sapphires, rubies, emeralds and diamonds. The blade was crap, but the dress was exceptional. It took him about five years of trying, after his wedding, to sell it.

I know people in Jawa who have borrowed or hired a keris for their wedding.

I know others who have just bought an ordinary keris that they could afford and then sold it after the wedding.

I know others who have used a family keris and then handed it back to Dad after the event.

Don't know what they do in Tanah Toraja, but if I remember to ask, I'm sure I'll find out.

Laowang · 7th December 2010, 04:43 AM

Photograph attached from 'The Torajans of Sulawesi Live to Die', Los Angeles Times, August 14, 2008. No real explanation of the kerises in the article, but another example of the presence of keris in Torajan contemporary culture. Article at link below:

www.latimes.com/travel/la-trw-fg-sulawesi-indonesia-deathtribe2008aug14,0,1337473.story?page=1

There is a reference to keris and Toraja in Taylor & Aragon, Beyond the Java Sea (New York: Abrams, 1991), p.176: "The Toraja decorate their houses and rice barn facades with carved motifs important to the owning families. Buffalo heads refer to prosperity and ceremonial sacrifices. Gold knives, or kris (called gayang in the Toraja language), represent heirlooms and wealth of high-status people."

An accompanying photograph shows several keris as part of a funeral procession; the photograph is dated before 1949. I will try to scan the photograph at a later point, as I have no scanner at home.

Jean · 7th December 2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Women own property just as men do.
Every man, even a commoner, would strive to own a keris.
Then we must ask if this is not the case in Toraja, who was Marco's keris made for, because it certainly does not seem to be made on the level of quality and materials that would be worthy of a noble. I would think that if it were not made for a commoner, if only nobles in Toraja own keris, then Marco's most likely was intended for the tourist market.

Hello David,

I agree that Toraja women could own pusaka krisses as well as confirmed by Alan, as these are family krisses.
I am not sure that every Toraja commoner would strive to own a keris, it this was the case, we would see more of them on the market, and in museums and collections. As a comparison in Aceh the commoners usually wore the rencong and the krisses were reserved to the elite.
I still believe that Marco's kris is a genuine piece and was used but "some nobles are more noble than others".
Thanks to Alan and Laowang for their contribution.
Best regards
Jean

7th December 2010, 04:43 AM	#11
Laowang Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: 40˚00' N, 83˚00' W Posts: 52	Photograph attached from 'The Torajans of Sulawesi Live to Die', Los Angeles Times, August 14, 2008. No real explanation of the kerises in the article, but another example of the presence of keris in Torajan contemporary culture. Article at link below: www.latimes.com/travel/la-trw-fg-sulawesi-indonesia-deathtribe2008aug14,0,1337473.story?page=1 There is a reference to keris and Toraja in Taylor & Aragon, Beyond the Java Sea (New York: Abrams, 1991), p.176: "The Toraja decorate their houses and rice barn facades with carved motifs important to the owning families. Buffalo heads refer to prosperity and ceremonial sacrifices. Gold knives, or kris (called gayang in the Toraja language), represent heirlooms and wealth of high-status people." An accompanying photograph shows several keris as part of a funeral procession; the photograph is dated before 1949. I will try to scan the photograph at a later point, as I have no scanner at home. Attached Images

6th December 2010, 09:12 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Thanks for the image Jean. Is that off the internet because i missed that one. Much in the same dress mode as yours i would say, so strike my question #4 and change "none" to "most"...

7th December 2010, 02:26 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	I hope you understand, Jean, that i have no "horse in this race", so to speak. I am just trying to sort out fact from conjecture and get a better grasp on the keris culture of Toraja and what it means. I also never intended that you be the only one to answer all my questions. They are not directed specifically at you, but at the community here as a whole, so i do indeed hope that others here can fill in the spaces when our own personal knowledge and research has run dry. It seems obvious that the Torajan culture has its own specific take on the keris. As we know, in most Indonesian cultures the keris is, among other things, a symbol of manhood and lineage and is for the most part the provence of the men in the society. Patrems exist in these cultures, but they seem the exception, not the rule. From what i can see in these photos and videos it is quite the opposite story in Toraja. Toraja does not have a patriarchal society. Unlike other areas of Indonesia lineage is bilateral, so children inherit from both sides of the family. Women own property just as men do. Even once the keris become a ceremonial weapon in Java i believe it would still be worn by a warrior because of the everything else it means within that society. It is possible that the keris was never a true weapon in Toraja, but then i would imagine that it came into their culture somewhat late on the general timeline of keris history. As for your question about the status level of the 3 old warriors, it may well be so that they are "commoners". Of course, in most areas with keris culture the keris has trickled down to commoner status level. Every man, even a commoner, would strive to own a keris. Then we must ask if this is not the case in Toraja, who was Marco's keris made for, because it certainly does not seem to be made on the level of quality and materials that would be worthy of a noble. I would think that if it were not made for a commoner, if only nobles in Toraja own keris, then Marco's most likely was intended for the tourist market. Yours, being of a higher quality with gold seems more likely to have had a different intention. I don't know how you can tell what kind of keris the girls are carrying in the wedding video. The women in the dance video seem to be carrying props, not real keris at all. The keris in the funeral rituals look real enough, but it's impossible to tell without handling them. But these are real ceremonies in these videos even if they are open to the public. They are, unfortunately, all we have to rely on for now for a look at the current state of keris culture in Toraja.

7th December 2010, 03:49 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I have almost nothing of worth to add to this discussion at this time. However, I do know a woman who comes from Tanah Toraja, quite well. She's a close friend of my wife and we exchange social visits. She has mentioned to me that she has her family's keris. At the moment she is away from home, and I will be away myself as of next Saturday, but I'll follow this matter up when I get back, and I may be able to shed a little light on the subject. As for the "wedding keris" business, I guess a "wedding keris" is any keris that that has been used as a dress item at a wedding. I know a bloke in Bali who almost bankrupted himself putting together the most beautiful keris I've seen , for his wedding. Gold hilt and scabbard set with an enormous number of sapphires, rubies, emeralds and diamonds. The blade was crap, but the dress was exceptional. It took him about five years of trying, after his wedding, to sell it. I know people in Jawa who have borrowed or hired a keris for their wedding. I know others who have just bought an ordinary keris that they could afford and then sold it after the wedding. I know others who have used a family keris and then handed it back to Dad after the event. Don't know what they do in Tanah Toraja, but if I remember to ask, I'm sure I'll find out.