Tenggerese Keris

tunggulametung · 28th November 2010, 01:57 PM

While some people believe that Majapahit keris are slim in design and light, some do believe that they are nearer to Blambangan/Bali style. As we know, other than Bali, Tenggerese are often regarded as the 'direct' descent of Majaphit population. Is there anyone with the knowledge what the Tenggerese keris looks like? A photo or two perhaps, preferably older one? Why I ask this is because this might give us hint on further understanding Majapahit keris. They are quite 'isolated' in term of geography and culture, so chances are the the new never or only slightly affected the old ways. And what your thoughts about this idea? Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2010, 10:38 PM

Good idea!!

One I had not considered, and in my opinion well worth investigation.

However, it could be a bit difficult to carry out this type of research, as the Tenggerese people are quite a closed community. Yes, they regard themselves as being the inheritors of Majapahit, but by all accounts are very intolerant of outsiders and are totally fixated on money.

I feel it might be more than a little difficult to get close enough to those within the community who really know, and to extract the information.

Then again, maybe this part of the culture has simply been forgotten. I know personally of an example of this.

tunggulametung · 29th November 2010, 08:22 AM

I believe all you need is a good pick up line. I have an American friend who's during his travel in Indonesia uses: "suka dangdut?"
One of his best achievement by that line is Bluebird taxi driver ALWAYS allow him to smoke, something I NEVER be able to manage.

Gustav · 11th November 2011, 10:38 AM

Is ir possible, the Tenggerese have no keris culture at all? I have seen very few old photos with Tenggerese people, yet never a keris. It would mean, they were quite isolated froma very early point in the time.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2011, 11:05 AM

Entirely possible Gustav.

It depends upon what section of society they came from, and when.

David · 11th November 2011, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Is ir possible, the Tenggerese have no keris culture at all? I have seen very few old photos with Tenggerese people, yet never a keris. It would mean, they were quite isolated froma very early point in the time.

Well, i spent some time searching google images and did not spot a single photo, old or new, of Tenggerese with keris. Here are a selection of those images. Note that many of these are in ceremony or are of local priests where you would expect to find a keris even if they were not common amongst the general populous.

Jussi M. · 11th November 2011, 06:23 PM

Maybe they do not show their kerises in public?

David · 11th November 2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Maybe they do not show their kerises in public?

I suppose that is possible, but it seems counter to what we know about every other keris bearing culture. Surely, if not in regular day-to-day life, one would expect to see a keris in a ritual or ceremonial context.

Pusaka · 11th November 2011, 07:28 PM

Do the Tenggerese people have Silat, if so must be a very old style. Maybe the first question would be to ask them if they have Silat, if they say yes then ask them what weapons do they use/have

VVV · 11th November 2011, 09:54 PM

I once went through Hefner's Hindu Javanese. Tengger Tradition and Islam to find anything about the keris. The closest was on page 147 were Hefner compares a prayer in Tugel, the Tengger haircutting ceremony, as if forging [the pamor] of a javanese dagger with mixed metal. But to my disappointment there was no mentioning of any Tengger keris...

Michael

Jussi M. · 11th November 2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I suppose that is possible, but it seems counter to what we know about every other keris bearing culture. Surely, if not in regular day-to-day life, one would expect to see a keris in a ritual or ceremonial context.

Yeah, it is unlikely but either it is that or they do not have keris culture as we have learnt to know it. - Or maybe we just do not have enough material to draw conclusions from?

PenangsangII · 12th November 2011, 12:54 PM

why not look at Palembang kerises pre Sultan Agung period for the closest similarity with Majapahit kerises? And as for keris culture closest to Majapahit ahkir era, we can look to Kelantan, malaysia - once considered West Majapahit or Majapahit II. Keris culture in Malay populated areas have not evolved as much as in Jawa land

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2011, 07:45 PM

For an understanding of what the Majapahit "empire" was really like, I most strongly suggest a reading of all five volumes of Pigeaud's
"Java in the Fourteenth Century" .

This may seem like a cyptic remark, but to provide a fuller explanation, beginning from the base we have here, would take me far too long, use too much Forum space, and undoubtedly be off topic.

The keris as it is known now simply did not exist during Majapahit. What we see now is the result of 500 years of cultural development. A probable representation of a Majapahit keris style is shown in the Panataran reliefs, and it looks remarkably like a present day bugis keris, including the scabbard.

The Brahmana, K'satriya, and Wesia of Bali consider themselves to be "wong Maospait" = "people of Majapahit" . The Balinese keris is very probably a good representation of the keris of Majapahit, as it was circa 1468, however, the earlier keris would probably have been a little smaller than the later Balinese keris became.

Different styles clearly existed, and were probably associated with different levels of society. The "keris" of the common people was probably known as the "tuhuk" (tuhuk = tewek) (see ying yai sheng lan "pulak" ), whilst the kerises of others levels in society bore different names.This "keris" of the common people may not have even been recognizable as something that we would call a "keris" today.

As for the Tenggerese and keris, these people supposedly descended from Majapahit royalty. Maybe. Or maybe its just a creation myth. In any case, they settled on the slopes of Bromo and formed a remote community. Farmers, not traders. Material for weapon manufacture would have been a problem for them, I feel that any iron that they had available would have been used for tools, rather than weapons, and at the time they settled, the keris had not yet developed its character as a cultural icon, it was still very much associated with the elites. Bearing in mind the social and cultural factors at play here, it does not surprise me in even the slightest degree that the keris is not prominent in Tenggerese society.

In fact, after the collapse of Majapahit, little groups of Hindu-Buddhist people from Majapahit isolated themselves in remote areas all over East Jawa. Certainly, some went to Bali, but not all did. Demak conducted conversion at the point of sword, and all other Islamic kingdoms which followed Demak did the same, right through to Amangkurat. Blambangan was the longest big hold out, but the small, remote settlements were pretty much left alone. If the Islamic troops put in an appearance, the villagers just melted into the mountains and disappeared until the Muslims got sick of looking for them, and went home. One such remote settlement was above Songgoriti , in the hills behind Batu, above Malang in East Jawa. Until today the remnants of the original refugees who fled from Islamic conversion live in this area. They have assimilated with later Muslim arrivals in the area, but they preserve the memory of their inheritance, and this is acknowledged by all who live in the area. They were the original elites of this area.

If anybody has any real desire to learn anything at all about the keris, that person needs to stop reading about keris and weaponry and commence a very diverse study program that encompasses many subjects which are "off topic" for keris discussion.

Sajen · 13th November 2011, 02:45 PM

I have been in this region 1992 to visit the Mt. Bromo. I haven't seen not one keris.

kapten_windu · 14th November 2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I have been in this region 1992 to visit the Mt. Bromo. I haven't seen not one keris.

I've never seen People in Tengger wear Keris, but i ever see on TV that they have a sacred Tombak that placed in rolled white cloth..

tunggulametung · 16th November 2011, 02:46 PM

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge & ideas. I would imagine such a mountainous & strategic area was once an important religious destination during East Javanese Hindu kingdoms but also perhaps it has something to do with the last stage of life in catur asrama. Surely not enough material to draw any conclusions so far

Thanks again

28th November 2010, 01:57 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Tenggerese Keris While some people believe that Majapahit keris are slim in design and light, some do believe that they are nearer to Blambangan/Bali style. As we know, other than Bali, Tenggerese are often regarded as the 'direct' descent of Majaphit population. Is there anyone with the knowledge what the Tenggerese keris looks like? A photo or two perhaps, preferably older one? Why I ask this is because this might give us hint on further understanding Majapahit keris. They are quite 'isolated' in term of geography and culture, so chances are the the new never or only slightly affected the old ways. And what your thoughts about this idea? Thanks

28th November 2010, 10:38 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,965	Good idea!! One I had not considered, and in my opinion well worth investigation. However, it could be a bit difficult to carry out this type of research, as the Tenggerese people are quite a closed community. Yes, they regard themselves as being the inheritors of Majapahit, but by all accounts are very intolerant of outsiders and are totally fixated on money. I feel it might be more than a little difficult to get close enough to those within the community who really know, and to extract the information. Then again, maybe this part of the culture has simply been forgotten. I know personally of an example of this.

29th November 2010, 08:22 AM	#3
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I believe all you need is a good pick up line. I have an American friend who's during his travel in Indonesia uses: "suka dangdut?" One of his best achievement by that line is Bluebird taxi driver ALWAYS allow him to smoke, something I NEVER be able to manage.

11th November 2011, 10:38 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,262	Is ir possible, the Tenggerese have no keris culture at all? I have seen very few old photos with Tenggerese people, yet never a keris. It would mean, they were quite isolated froma very early point in the time.

11th November 2011, 11:05 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,965	Entirely possible Gustav. It depends upon what section of society they came from, and when.

11th November 2011, 06:23 PM	#7
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Maybe they do not show their kerises in public?

11th November 2011, 07:28 PM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Do the Tenggerese people have Silat, if so must be a very old style. Maybe the first question would be to ask them if they have Silat, if they say yes then ask them what weapons do they use/have

11th November 2011, 09:54 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I once went through Hefner's Hindu Javanese. Tengger Tradition and Islam to find anything about the keris. The closest was on page 147 were Hefner compares a prayer in Tugel, the Tengger haircutting ceremony, as if forging [the pamor] of a javanese dagger with mixed metal. But to my disappointment there was no mentioning of any Tengger keris... Michael

12th November 2011, 12:54 PM	#12
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	why not look at Palembang kerises pre Sultan Agung period for the closest similarity with Majapahit kerises? And as for keris culture closest to Majapahit ahkir era, we can look to Kelantan, malaysia - once considered West Majapahit or Majapahit II. Keris culture in Malay populated areas have not evolved as much as in Jawa land

12th November 2011, 07:45 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,965	For an understanding of what the Majapahit "empire" was really like, I most strongly suggest a reading of all five volumes of Pigeaud's "Java in the Fourteenth Century" . This may seem like a cyptic remark, but to provide a fuller explanation, beginning from the base we have here, would take me far too long, use too much Forum space, and undoubtedly be off topic. The keris as it is known now simply did not exist during Majapahit. What we see now is the result of 500 years of cultural development. A probable representation of a Majapahit keris style is shown in the Panataran reliefs, and it looks remarkably like a present day bugis keris, including the scabbard. The Brahmana, K'satriya, and Wesia of Bali consider themselves to be "wong Maospait" = "people of Majapahit" . The Balinese keris is very probably a good representation of the keris of Majapahit, as it was circa 1468, however, the earlier keris would probably have been a little smaller than the later Balinese keris became. Different styles clearly existed, and were probably associated with different levels of society. The "keris" of the common people was probably known as the "tuhuk" (tuhuk = tewek) (see ying yai sheng lan "pulak" ), whilst the kerises of others levels in society bore different names.This "keris" of the common people may not have even been recognizable as something that we would call a "keris" today. As for the Tenggerese and keris, these people supposedly descended from Majapahit royalty. Maybe. Or maybe its just a creation myth. In any case, they settled on the slopes of Bromo and formed a remote community. Farmers, not traders. Material for weapon manufacture would have been a problem for them, I feel that any iron that they had available would have been used for tools, rather than weapons, and at the time they settled, the keris had not yet developed its character as a cultural icon, it was still very much associated with the elites. Bearing in mind the social and cultural factors at play here, it does not surprise me in even the slightest degree that the keris is not prominent in Tenggerese society. In fact, after the collapse of Majapahit, little groups of Hindu-Buddhist people from Majapahit isolated themselves in remote areas all over East Jawa. Certainly, some went to Bali, but not all did. Demak conducted conversion at the point of sword, and all other Islamic kingdoms which followed Demak did the same, right through to Amangkurat. Blambangan was the longest big hold out, but the small, remote settlements were pretty much left alone. If the Islamic troops put in an appearance, the villagers just melted into the mountains and disappeared until the Muslims got sick of looking for them, and went home. One such remote settlement was above Songgoriti , in the hills behind Batu, above Malang in East Jawa. Until today the remnants of the original refugees who fled from Islamic conversion live in this area. They have assimilated with later Muslim arrivals in the area, but they preserve the memory of their inheritance, and this is acknowledged by all who live in the area. They were the original elites of this area. If anybody has any real desire to learn anything at all about the keris, that person needs to stop reading about keris and weaponry and commence a very diverse study program that encompasses many subjects which are "off topic" for keris discussion.

13th November 2011, 02:45 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,126	I have been in this region 1992 to visit the Mt. Bromo. I haven't seen not one keris.

16th November 2011, 02:46 PM	#16
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Thank you all for sharing your knowledge & ideas. I would imagine such a mountainous & strategic area was once an important religious destination during East Javanese Hindu kingdoms but also perhaps it has something to do with the last stage of life in catur asrama. Surely not enough material to draw any conclusions so far Thanks again