1439 o 1509 ?

mrwizard · 21st November 2010, 12:24 AM

What kind of drawing do you have in mind?
Something like this?

Matchlock · 21st November 2010, 12:27 PM

Exactly!

The most important thing is that they clearly show the different places of the straps, as mentioned by you.

Best,
m

mrwizard · 21st November 2010, 03:00 PM

3D-modelling is fun, so I just made another image with rivets attached and with the shaft attached.

fernando · 21st November 2010, 03:34 PM

Picking up Michl's post #3 ...
...That guy blowing his horn and holding his dogs (Fig 130 from Bern manuscript by Boners Eldestein) suggests some familiarity between the lances being discussed and those used for hunting. The first of such lances had no "wings" or "ears" and date from classic antiquity. As very often they penetrated to deep into the game's body, allowing the animals that used to fight back (bears and boars) to reach for the hunter, a cross bracket was developed in order to retain the lance head at a limited depth. This device was implemented in Portugal by the XIII century, some later than in other countries.
This tipe of hunting lance was called in Portugal "Ascuma", a term that tends to disappear from modern dictionaries. This word derived from the German "Asc", meaning "Esche" or "Ash", due to one of the selected woods used in their shafts.
Illustrated are a boar hunting scene by Gaston Phoebus (XIV century) at the Paris National Library and an engraving from the Tryumph of Maximilian (1526), showing bear hunters with long ascumas.
Can one actually consider these hunting lances predecessor to chiaverine?

.

Matchlock · 21st November 2010, 07:35 PM

Clever input indeed, 'Nando,

Though I am not expert enough by far to competently answer your query I am sure that the spears shown by Gaston Phoebus were the formal predecessors of the so called Froschmaul-Spieße (frog's mouth spears) that came in use in the times of Maximilian I, and the heavy bear or boar spears depicted by Hans Burgkmair in the Triumph of Maximilian were widely in use for hunting from at least the 15th to the 18th centuries.

I attach images of the Maximilian frog's mouth spear from the Graz armory, ca. 1500-20, and cut down to 2.60 m in the 1560's, in my collection (on top of the halberds).

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 21st November 2010, 09:21 PM

Two more Bohemian earspoons, ca. 1460-70, in the museum of Schloss Grandson, Switzerland (the two below the group of pikes).

m

21st November 2010, 12:24 AM	#1
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	What kind of drawing do you have in mind? Something like this? Attached Images

21st November 2010, 03:34 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Picking up Michl's post #3 ... ...That guy blowing his horn and holding his dogs (Fig 130 from Bern manuscript by Boners Eldestein) suggests some familiarity between the lances being discussed and those used for hunting. The first of such lances had no "wings" or "ears" and date from classic antiquity. As very often they penetrated to deep into the game's body, allowing the animals that used to fight back (bears and boars) to reach for the hunter, a cross bracket was developed in order to retain the lance head at a limited depth. This device was implemented in Portugal by the XIII century, some later than in other countries. This tipe of hunting lance was called in Portugal "Ascuma", a term that tends to disappear from modern dictionaries. This word derived from the German "Asc", meaning "Esche" or "Ash", due to one of the selected woods used in their shafts. Illustrated are a boar hunting scene by Gaston Phoebus (XIV century) at the Paris National Library and an engraving from the Tryumph of Maximilian (1526), showing bear hunters with long ascumas. Can one actually consider these hunting lances predecessor to chiaverine? . Attached Images

21st November 2010, 07:35 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Clever input indeed, 'Nando, Though I am not expert enough by far to competently answer your query I am sure that the spears shown by Gaston Phoebus were the formal predecessors of the so called Froschmaul-Spieße (frog's mouth spears) that came in use in the times of Maximilian I, and the heavy bear or boar spears depicted by Hans Burgkmair in the Triumph of Maximilian were widely in use for hunting from at least the 15th to the 18th centuries. I attach images of the Maximilian frog's mouth spear from the Graz armory, ca. 1500-20, and cut down to 2.60 m in the 1560's, in my collection (on top of the halberds). Best, Michl Attached Images

21st November 2010, 09:21 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two more Bohemian earspoons, ca. 1460-70, in the museum of Schloss Grandson, Switzerland (the two below the group of pikes). m Attached Images

21st November 2010, 12:27 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly! The most important thing is that they clearly show the different places of the straps, as mentioned by you. Best, m

21st November 2010, 03:00 PM	#3
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	3D-modelling is fun, so I just made another image with rivets attached and with the shaft attached. Attached Images