Interesting Wootz Tulwar for comment

Atlantia · 20th November 2010, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello all and sorry about the delayd answer. I have been a member for a long time but haven`t introduce myself. So, my name is Timo and Im a blacksmith from Finland. I collect indo-persian weapons and I have travelled in India quite a many times, visiting museums and antique stores and collecting information.

Im sorry, but on that day I saw the pile of the swords (it was really a pile, a dozens of tulwars lying on the floor on the back of the antique dealers room) I didn`t have a camera with me. Otherwise I would not regret that so much but I was offered a real rarity and that was something I`l like to have a picture now.
It was a Rajasthani style hilted tulwar with one side of the blade been damascus and other side a nice, clear pattern wootz. Have any ideas how that kind of blade have been made? I have make damascus myself and I know that the welding temperature to make damascus or forge welding is so high that in that temperature you will loose the hardness and the pattern from the wootz.
The dealer asked 6000 euros, but that was way over my travelling budget,though now I think that I should have bought the sword and take a credit card for use..

So, a normal looking tulwar with nice gold koftgari handle and a blade with other side of mechanical damascus and other wootz. Any ideas?

Hi 'Blacksmith'
Thanks for coming in on this discussion.
Do you still have the similar sword to mine that you bought? If so I'd like to see pictures of that one.

As for the dual sided blade you saw, that sounds familiar. Have blades of that type been discussed here before?
We see fine wootz blades with joins and even repairs in the blades where the pattern is retained.
As a total novice I would assume that to join the two sides of the blade, the pattern welded side would be formed first and introduced to the wootz side as a final part of the wootz sides forming process.
I must say though that there is a lot of difference between the hardness of wootz from blade to blade.
This Indian wootz Tulwar of mine for example is quite hard and inflexible, while the examples of persian wootz that I have seems to be a lot more flexible and comparitively 'softer'.

Rick · 20th November 2010, 01:52 PM

If I recall some several years ago we discussed an Indo Persian sword that had one plain side and one of wootz .

Possibly it was in Artzi's collection ???

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2010, 04:24 PM

It's a nice silver plated tulwar you are showing, and the plating seem to be rather thick. I don't know from where it is, but a good guess could be Deccan or south Rajasthan.

Hello Timo,
It is said that good weapons in India are more expensive that in Europe, and this may be right, but the tulwar you describe is a rare thing – very rare. Besides, you might have been able to convince him that you were only a poor tourist who would like to help him, so he could feed his family. So in order to help each other, he would have to reduce the price

.

Of all the weapons made in India, only relatively few were high quality weapons, so good Indian weapons are not cheap, and they get more and more rare, as some ends up in museums, never to get out again, while others end up in private collections where they may stay for 30 or 40 years, or maybe even longer.

How these blades were made I don’t know, but as far as I recall, neither Sachse in ‘Damaszener Stahl’ or Hoyland and Gilmour in ‘Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmakers’ writes anything about it. Personally I think it was a master sword maker showing off.

Jens

Blacksmith · 20th November 2010, 07:52 PM

Hi Atlantia. Yes I still have the sword but it is `under construction` at the moment. I ´m polishing the blade ( it had some pitting) and re-aciding it. The pattern was quite faint on the other side. When its ready I will send some pictures.

And Jens, you are right, the weapons can be a lot more expencier in India than, for example, On London Antique Arms Fair. On the other hand there is more possibilities to make a good found for a reasonable price but that demands travelling inside the country. And it seems that, also there, the quality stuff is coming more difficult to find every year.

Regards, Timo

20th November 2010, 04:24 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It's a nice silver plated tulwar you are showing, and the plating seem to be rather thick. I don't know from where it is, but a good guess could be Deccan or south Rajasthan. Hello Timo, It is said that good weapons in India are more expensive that in Europe, and this may be right, but the tulwar you describe is a rare thing – very rare. Besides, you might have been able to convince him that you were only a poor tourist who would like to help him, so he could feed his family. So in order to help each other, he would have to reduce the price. Of all the weapons made in India, only relatively few were high quality weapons, so good Indian weapons are not cheap, and they get more and more rare, as some ends up in museums, never to get out again, while others end up in private collections where they may stay for 30 or 40 years, or maybe even longer. How these blades were made I don’t know, but as far as I recall, neither Sachse in ‘Damaszener Stahl’ or Hoyland and Gilmour in ‘Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmakers’ writes anything about it. Personally I think it was a master sword maker showing off. Jens

20th November 2010, 01:52 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	If I recall some several years ago we discussed an Indo Persian sword that had one plain side and one of wootz . Possibly it was in Artzi's collection ???

20th November 2010, 07:52 PM	#4
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Hi Atlantia. Yes I still have the sword but it is `under construction` at the moment. I ´m polishing the blade ( it had some pitting) and re-aciding it. The pattern was quite faint on the other side. When its ready I will send some pictures. And Jens, you are right, the weapons can be a lot more expencier in India than, for example, On London Antique Arms Fair. On the other hand there is more possibilities to make a good found for a reasonable price but that demands travelling inside the country. And it seems that, also there, the quality stuff is coming more difficult to find every year. Regards, Timo