Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

[David]

Thanks for these postings and exactly my point....and i sooooooo want that box!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Actually Gerald B. Gardner does happen to be the author of the notable work "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" (1936). His interests in occult coupled with his being an anthropologist, and his field work in SE Asia led to this work, but it would seem that his focus was on the anthropological aspects and ethnographic elements with these weapons rather than outright collecting of them simply as weapons themselves. I believe he saw them as importantly associated esoterica corresponding to his metaphysical beliefs.

While the use of votive or ritual weapons in established practices of certain religious or group followings, is often well established, it does not necessarily suggest that members or followers are inherently weapons collectors in general. In most cases the weapons are collectively used by the group or held in sacred places where ceremonies take place. Obviously this would not preclude personal acquisition of a weapon appropriately themed for an individual, as may well be the case with this dagger.

All best regards,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In most cases the weapons are collectively used by the group or held in sacred places where ceremonies take place. Obviously this would not preclude personal acquisition of a weapon appropriately themed for an individual, as may well be the case with this dagger.

Sorry Jim, but this is patently incorrect. Every member of a coven or magical lodge would indeed own their own personal athame or ritual dagger. Ceremonial lodge pactitioners (Golden Dawn, O.T.O) would also be expected to own a personal ritual sword as well as a dagger.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry Jim, but this is patently incorrect. Every member of a coven or magical lodge would indeed own their own personal athame or ritual dagger. Ceremonial lodge pactitioners (Golden Dawn, O.T.O) would also be expected to own a personal ritual sword as well as a dagger.

No problem David, and thank you for the clarification. I was trying to apply the comment broadly to include other examples outside Wiccan covens and related groups as well as Tantric Buddhists and others. Obviously there are specific differences as pertains to weaponry. I do know that fraternal orders and brotherhoods of course have thier own swords such as Freemasons and many others. I would imagine in these respects it would be better to address each group separately , but my main point was that belonging to these groups and owning a ceremonial weapon is different than being an active collector of weapons, the two not necessarily related.

All the best,
Jim

[David]

Well, i wasn't speaking of Tantric Buddhist groups as i have little knowledge of their workings. But i can say with some confidence that my statement does indeed apply to a fairly wide sweep of neo-pagan practices that use edge weapons edged weapons in their rituals.
I must also note that an unusually high number of my friends in this wide sweep of neo-pagan traditions (and i am not really talking about Freemasons or Fraternal Brotherhoods BTW when i speak of "Ceremonial Lodge Traditions") have a keen interest in edged weapons and that many do indeed collect them to some degree. Certainly not all, but the percentage is higher than my non pagan friends. I must qualify that, of course, by stating that most of my friends are neo-pagans.

[Ron Anderson]

Well then, perhaps neo-pagans broadly like knives and the like. Unlike many practicing buddhists, who would regard this as negative.

I have actually bought some very crude home-made satanic-looking daggers in markets - items poorly made with goat's heads. I've since sold them. And though they'd be quite deadly in an assault, they were unimpressive in every other respect.

It wouldn't suprise me if these were made by neo-pagans, considering the fact that there are reportedly so many popping up everywhere.

The fact is, while many neo-pagans may also be interested in items of historical interest, their religion in no way impels them to practice with items of genuine historical worth. And for the most part, they are no more educated in historical matters than most sectors of the populace.

If they have to own a sword or a dagger, they can as easily pick up some nice witchy looking 20th century fantasy item.

I suspect many do.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Well then, perhaps neo-pagans broadly like knives and the like. Unlike many practicing buddhists, who would regard this as negative.

I have actually bought some very crude home-made satanic-looking daggers in markets - items poorly made with goat's heads. I've since sold them. And though they'd be quite deadly in an assault, they were unimpressive in every other respect.

It wouldn't suprise me if these were made by neo-pagans, considering the fact that there are reportedly so many popping up everywhere.

The fact is, while many neo-pagans may also be interested in items of historical interest, their religion in no way impels them to practice with items of genuine historical worth. And for the most part, they are no more educated in historical matters than most sectors of the populace.

If they have to own a sword or a dagger, they can as easily pick up some nice witchy looking 20th century fantasy item.

I suspect many do.

This last statement is undoubtly true Ron, though many of my friend actual choose to forge their own blades or buy blades from pagan bladesmiths. Many traditions maintain that the blade you use should be newly made so most will not be using historical daggers for their actual ritual items. But i am afraid that i am not getting your point here. I was not discussing whether modern pagans use historical antique blades in their practice. Most will not. So it would be unlikely that a modern pagan would be moved to buy this particular dagger to use as a ritual knife in their religious practice regardless of the presence of the Green Man on the hilt. I was merely correcting Jim's belief that ritual items like daggers were commonly used communally instead of each practitioner having his/her own. I was also commenting on what i thought was an unusually high percentage of neo-pagans that i know personally who also have a historical interest in blades (just as Gardner did) and who collect them. Is there a connection to the fact that many people who use a dagger regularly in their religious practice also find them an interesting point of further study outside the function of their particular religion. I would have to say probably.
BTW "most sectors of the populous" are really sadly informed on historical matters and seem to have little to no interest in them. As a college instructor i encounter this on a daily basis even amongst those seeking higher education. Interestingly, i have also found that most modern pagans indeed do have a keen interest in history. So if you like i am willing to debate this point from my own personal observations and experiences.
Making a point that the crude, homemade "satanic" daggers you once owned were unimpressive is like saying that the a crudely fashioned crucifix that was once owned and loved by a fervent believer of the Catholic faith was unimpressive. That is, of course, if what you owned truly were ritual tools which were held as sacred by their owners. Many "sacred" items indeed appear "unimpressive" to people outside their own faith. Many Indonesian Dukuns (shaman) for instance, will use the most unassuming tools in their work. Next to a master work keris of royal regalia their own blade might appear to be crudely fashioned and "unimpressive". Yet to him and the people he treats it is a most powerful spiritual tool.
And lastly Ron, please do not confuse neo-paganism with satanism. It's insulting. Neo-pagans are not going to be making daggers for satanist and they are not satanists themselves. This is not really the forum for such a discussion, but if you like to educate yourself further on the subject you can find plenty of info on the web about it. Though it's just a start try Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism