Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

David · 17th November 2010, 08:59 PM

Gentlemen, i would hate to see us go off on a wild "green man" chase here much as we did with the "satanic dagger" posted some time back (Esmerelda and Notre Dame). Certainly there is no denying that the origins of the Green Man are a pagan one, but again, let me remind you all just how much the image has been used again and again throughout the British Isles in Christian iconography in churches. There is no parody in purpose for it's use in the architectural elements of some of England's classic churches.
http://www.google.com/images?q=green...w=1417&bih=689
Furthermore the Green Man plays an important role in Arthurian Legend, which, of course, we can find much paganism in, though it clearly was given renewed interest and attention in the Gothic Revival from which most of us seem to think this dagger originates from. Therefore i find nothing to support that this was ever intended to be a "pagan" blade, athame or otherwise.
Fearn is also indeed correct that an athame is specifically a double-edged blade so this clearly does not qualify.
Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting. So i don't think we can look to a well-off Wiccan as the reason this dagger sold for this price. Besides, though interested in it, no Wiccan would use a triple edged blade as an athame. This blade commanded this price for the same reason it commands our attention here. It is beautiful, unusual and well crafted. And allusions that we make to it having a pagan origin is pure unsupported conjecture. Though i equally have no proof to show it is not the case i believe that a logical examination of the interests of the Gothic Revival times and the art it produced should be enough of an explanation for the themes carved upon this dagger.

laEspadaAncha · 17th November 2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting.

I guess that's my point... that the symbolism present on the dagger would make it a desirable acquisition for a practicing neopagan or Wiccan.

Of course it will be of interest to a collector or purveyor of antique arms and armor. I simply am stating the addition of other potential interested parties - again, due to the symbolism - may have contributed to the realized price.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 10:50 PM

Hi laEspada

It's possible. It would be a shame though. As no practicing Wiccan is likely to appreciate it for its true merits or its immense cultural and historical interest.

I can only hope it was bought by a collector. I am one collector who would have paid that price if it were legal or easy for me to import daggers of this type into Australia.

Ron

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 11:06 PM

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

fearn · 18th November 2010, 01:17 AM

I'm not a Wiccan, but I figure that if members of any religion happens to hold a particular type of knife or sword sacred, it's really helpful to help them take proper care of their implements, whether it's a keris, an athame, a kirpan, or a druid grove's ceremonial sickles and swords.

We all like our blades, after all. No reason not to focus on our shared interests.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

David · 18th November 2010, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

Ron, i think you might have underestimated how many practicing Wiccans (or other neo-pagans) have an intensive interest and understanding of particular forms of arms and armour.
Do i have to point out that Gerald Garnder, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons.
A sweeping generalization indeed...

Ron Anderson · 18th November 2010, 03:21 AM

Do i have to point out that Gerald Gardner, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons.

Mmmmm...no, this I did not know. thank you, very interesting. Is this the same Gerald Gardner who published studies on witch hunts in medieval Europe? This just happens to be what my postgraduate history dissertation was about.

Fearn, as for sacred knives and weapons, I couldn't agree more. I am a practicing Tantric Buddhist, which is perhaps more of a contradiction/paradox for an arms collector than being a Wiccan. Many of the Tibetan knives under discussion here are items used in the tantric rituals I practice. Though I don't personally use those knives, or even own any......yet.

If there are Wiccans out there who have Tibetan tantric knives or implements they'd like to swap for potential athames, drop me a line. We need to talk.

Tim Simmons · 18th November 2010, 09:10 AM

I love gothic horror flims, my favourite film is "Dracula A.D, 1972" even if it is a bit silly. I like most of all the black mass scene with the "White Noise" album "Elecric Storm" sound track.
The artwork seen on this dagger is to my mind far to mature to have anthing to do with, you know what. It is the same Victorian taste as this box by Placido Zuloaga 1833-1910 Iron, counterfeit-damascened gold and silver, with applied gold and silver mounts, interior lined with stamped leather. held in the V&A.
Also this "Minton & Co" candlestick 1859. All under the term "The Renaisssance Revival"

Sadly the pub down the road called the Wyvern with the appropriate pub sign. Is not a Hell Fire Club last time I poped in. Perhaps I do not know the secret nod or wink

.

18th November 2010, 09:10 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,897	I love gothic horror flims, my favourite film is "Dracula A.D, 1972" even if it is a bit silly. I like most of all the black mass scene with the "White Noise" album "Elecric Storm" sound track. The artwork seen on this dagger is to my mind far to mature to have anthing to do with, you know what. It is the same Victorian taste as this box by Placido Zuloaga 1833-1910 Iron, counterfeit-damascened gold and silver, with applied gold and silver mounts, interior lined with stamped leather. held in the V&A. Also this "Minton & Co" candlestick 1859. All under the term "The Renaisssance Revival" Sadly the pub down the road called the Wyvern with the appropriate pub sign. Is not a Hell Fire Club last time I poped in. Perhaps I do not know the secret nod or wink . Attached Images

17th November 2010, 08:59 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,240	Gentlemen, i would hate to see us go off on a wild "green man" chase here much as we did with the "satanic dagger" posted some time back (Esmerelda and Notre Dame). Certainly there is no denying that the origins of the Green Man are a pagan one, but again, let me remind you all just how much the image has been used again and again throughout the British Isles in Christian iconography in churches. There is no parody in purpose for it's use in the architectural elements of some of England's classic churches. http://www.google.com/images?q=green...w=1417&bih=689 Furthermore the Green Man plays an important role in Arthurian Legend, which, of course, we can find much paganism in, though it clearly was given renewed interest and attention in the Gothic Revival from which most of us seem to think this dagger originates from. Therefore i find nothing to support that this was ever intended to be a "pagan" blade, athame or otherwise. Fearn is also indeed correct that an athame is specifically a double-edged blade so this clearly does not qualify. Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting. So i don't think we can look to a well-off Wiccan as the reason this dagger sold for this price. Besides, though interested in it, no Wiccan would use a triple edged blade as an athame. This blade commanded this price for the same reason it commands our attention here. It is beautiful, unusual and well crafted. And allusions that we make to it having a pagan origin is pure unsupported conjecture. Though i equally have no proof to show it is not the case i believe that a logical examination of the interests of the Gothic Revival times and the art it produced should be enough of an explanation for the themes carved upon this dagger.

17th November 2010, 10:50 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi laEspada It's possible. It would be a shame though. As no practicing Wiccan is likely to appreciate it for its true merits or its immense cultural and historical interest. I can only hope it was bought by a collector. I am one collector who would have paid that price if it were legal or easy for me to import daggers of this type into Australia. Ron

17th November 2010, 11:06 PM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

18th November 2010, 01:17 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm not a Wiccan, but I figure that if members of any religion happens to hold a particular type of knife or sword sacred, it's really helpful to help them take proper care of their implements, whether it's a keris, an athame, a kirpan, or a druid grove's ceremonial sickles and swords. We all like our blades, after all. No reason not to focus on our shared interests. My 0.00002 cents, F

18th November 2010, 03:21 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Do i have to point out that Gerald Gardner, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons. Mmmmm...no, this I did not know. thank you, very interesting. Is this the same Gerald Gardner who published studies on witch hunts in medieval Europe? This just happens to be what my postgraduate history dissertation was about. Fearn, as for sacred knives and weapons, I couldn't agree more. I am a practicing Tantric Buddhist, which is perhaps more of a contradiction/paradox for an arms collector than being a Wiccan. Many of the Tibetan knives under discussion here are items used in the tantric rituals I practice. Though I don't personally use those knives, or even own any......yet. If there are Wiccans out there who have Tibetan tantric knives or implements they'd like to swap for potential athames, drop me a line. We need to talk.