Strange Shamshir in Wootz Shocker! (pictures)

Atlantia · 17th November 2010, 06:37 PM

Alex,

Thanks Mate, couldn't agree more! I didn't think for a second that this would be wootz. Condition isn't too bad, pattern on that side dissapears toward the end where there is light pitting. I'm just seeing what the other side (slightly better condition holds now

Rick,

I was hoping you'd come in on this as you specialise in unusual wootz.
So this is Persian I guess. The cartouche says Amal Kalb Ali, so work of Ali. But I saw one sold by Christies where the blade was inscribed: "in typical self-deprecating style 'amal kalb 'ali isfahani "work of the Dog" of 'Ali at Isfahan."
They also date that blade as 17thC, but I can't see this as being early, not with that shape. I'll count rungs in a bit

kronck,

LOL, too right! Just salt for my chips for a while.

Regards ALL!
Gene

TVV · 17th November 2010, 07:02 PM

With this hobby, I do not think there is anything nicer than etching a blade to reveal a nice pattern in the steel. Congratulations Gene, this sword went from very nice to truly wonderul. Good job on the etch too.

Regards,
Teodor

RSWORD · 17th November 2010, 07:31 PM

Before forming an opinion on the age of the blade would you share a picture of the cartouche?

Gavin Nugent · 17th November 2010, 11:17 PM

Great news Gene, awesome find...and to think this treasure has gone unnoticed for some time just sitting there....Congrats, something we all would love to own.

Gav

Atlantia · 21st November 2010, 05:44 PM

Teodor,
Its fantastic when you were not expecting anything

Rick,
Cartouche below mate. Sorry for delay, its been gettng dark here by 4.30 and I've not been getting home from work till after that. Sorry about the grey tint, the light is awful.

Gav,
Cheers mate, I'm a bit chuffed needless to say!

RSWORD · 22nd November 2010, 02:40 AM

Gene,

Thank you for posting the additional pictures. Nice to see that the cartouche is true inlay and not koftgari. Dating shamshirs is not an exact science. Styles remained relatively unchanged for several hundred years and inscriptions such as yours, "Kalb Ali" can be found on examples from the 17th to the 19th century so you can't date it on that alone. Earlier shamshir blades tend to be thicker/heavier with less curvature. They tend to have more profile taper from hilt to tip. They were meant for business and use against armour. Later shamshir begin to have greater curvature, get lighter and thinner and at this later stage were not in use against armour. Not hard and fast rules, mind you, but generalizations. The fullering on your example is a bit unusual, the inspiration could be E Europe but also could be India as well. I think the blade could be as early as 18th century into the 19th century. The hilt and crossguard could be period or could be later replacements. Blades had long service lives so rehilts are not uncommon. You just have to make sure it wasn't done yesterday.

The watering is very nice and more typical of Persian wootz. The crossguard is Persian in style as is the handle.

17th November 2010, 11:17 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	woohoo!!! Great news Gene, awesome find...and to think this treasure has gone unnoticed for some time just sitting there....Congrats, something we all would love to own. Gav

21st November 2010, 05:44 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Teodor, Its fantastic when you were not expecting anything Rick, Cartouche below mate. Sorry for delay, its been gettng dark here by 4.30 and I've not been getting home from work till after that. Sorry about the grey tint, the light is awful. Gav, Cheers mate, I'm a bit chuffed needless to say! Attached Images

17th November 2010, 06:37 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Alex, Thanks Mate, couldn't agree more! I didn't think for a second that this would be wootz. Condition isn't too bad, pattern on that side dissapears toward the end where there is light pitting. I'm just seeing what the other side (slightly better condition holds now Rick, I was hoping you'd come in on this as you specialise in unusual wootz. So this is Persian I guess. The cartouche says Amal Kalb Ali, so work of Ali. But I saw one sold by Christies where the blade was inscribed: "in typical self-deprecating style 'amal kalb 'ali isfahani "work of the Dog" of 'Ali at Isfahan." They also date that blade as 17thC, but I can't see this as being early, not with that shape. I'll count rungs in a bit kronck, LOL, too right! Just salt for my chips for a while. Regards ALL! Gene

17th November 2010, 07:02 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	With this hobby, I do not think there is anything nicer than etching a blade to reveal a nice pattern in the steel. Congratulations Gene, this sword went from very nice to truly wonderul. Good job on the etch too. Regards, Teodor

17th November 2010, 07:31 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Before forming an opinion on the age of the blade would you share a picture of the cartouche?

22nd November 2010, 02:40 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Gene, Thank you for posting the additional pictures. Nice to see that the cartouche is true inlay and not koftgari. Dating shamshirs is not an exact science. Styles remained relatively unchanged for several hundred years and inscriptions such as yours, "Kalb Ali" can be found on examples from the 17th to the 19th century so you can't date it on that alone. Earlier shamshir blades tend to be thicker/heavier with less curvature. They tend to have more profile taper from hilt to tip. They were meant for business and use against armour. Later shamshir begin to have greater curvature, get lighter and thinner and at this later stage were not in use against armour. Not hard and fast rules, mind you, but generalizations. The fullering on your example is a bit unusual, the inspiration could be E Europe but also could be India as well. I think the blade could be as early as 18th century into the 19th century. The hilt and crossguard could be period or could be later replacements. Blades had long service lives so rehilts are not uncommon. You just have to make sure it wasn't done yesterday. The watering is very nice and more typical of Persian wootz. The crossguard is Persian in style as is the handle.