Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

[Jim McDougall]

The term 'Victorian Gothic' was primarily applied to the architectural phenomenon in England which seems to have evolved out of romanticism in England from about the 1740s. It would seem that there were leanings toward such romanticism already with the high society figures in England with the mysterious 'Hellfire Clubs' of c.1719 to well into the 18th century. As is well known, the so called Gothic novel came about in 1764 with Horace Walpoles "Castle of Otranto" which used the horror and foreboding atmosphere to great effect.
These Hellfire clubs were essentially a parody used in satirical sense toward religion, politics and other key contemporary matters, a sort of 'mens club' where wide range of otherwise socially unacceptable activities were engaged in.

When the Duke of Wharton, founder of the original club was chastized by the King and it was disbanded, he subsequently went into Freemasonry, then powerfully forming into the secretive fraternal brotherhood present in England, Scotland and France, expanding further internationally. The other developed versions of the 'club' remained active however, one of the most infamous that overseen by Sir Francis Dashwood from 1749 to around 1760-66.

These type of romanticized settings were the basis on which many aspects of neo Gothic classicism were formed, and which may be considered well in place in the 19th century. While we know Freemasonry was extremely well known by then, this weapon does not display symbolism particularly mindful of any of thier known themes. Still, mystery and illusion were extremely popular themes in many secretive socialogical deviations, which could of course include versions of occult and Wicca type groups. It is known that the much later Alastair Crowley even followed some of the ritual and ceremony from the hellfire groups.

Again, this dagger does not seem to have anything to do with the ever misunderstood and mysterious 'athame', and the only reason the term pagan was associated with the motif is the green man and dragon are known from those times. It does seem English, despite the baroque styling which even though associated with French was not only popular in England, but worked well with these Gothic themes.

The use of the stiletto was of course long obsolete, but just as with the also mysterious 'bombardiers stilettos' of Venice from much earlier, they survived as insignia of rank and as a secretive signal of insidious allusion. As there only artillery gunners were allowed to have such weapons, arcane symbols and measurements were engraved on many of these to suggest they were calibrated gunners stilettos, while actually the carrier was of more sinister purpose.

These are the kinds of allusions that may well be in place here, and the dagger may be considered made for or commissioned by someone of means and with purposes known to them, rather than a known type of dagger with more defined use.

The attachments are a gravestone, in variation of the green man theme using a skull, the Freemasons are keen on symbolism of the 'memento mori' (one day all will die). It is worthy of note that rebirth/ renaissance is often seen symbolized on weapons such has with the numbers 1414, which actually are from the Bible passage, when a man dies, shall he live again. The green man also carries rebirth symbolism.
The other is Sir Francis Dashwood, dressed as St. Francis of Assisi in a depiction of the allegorical themes often used in these clubs.

As usual, one of my own Gothic novels in describing this, but I like to write, so why not?

All the best,
Jim

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These Hellfire clubs were essentially a parody used in satirical sense toward religion... and the only reason the term pagan was associated with the motif is the green man and dragon are known from those times.

Good note - I would also add to it the 18th C. French origins of the Black Mass, itself a parody of the Catholic Mass. Long before the rise of 19th C. Hermeticism (largely credited with haven given rise to the modern occult movement), there was a long-existing anti-religious backlash practiced by members of the aristocracy, and it would not take a great leap to see how pre-Christian, paleopagan symbolism could serve a parodic purpose in line with these sentiments.

However, I find the explicit representation of the Green Man to be too specific to dismiss any connection to paleopagan beliefs, even if such a representation of such beliefs wasn't meant to embody pagan ritual as much as it might have been meant to serve a purpose in line with the satirical anti-Catholic rituals that existed at the time. Thus, while not an athame per say, I don't think some type of ritualistic function can be completely ruled out, even if said function was rooted in parody as opposed to belief...




ETA: While not an athame per say, given the nature of neopagan / Wiccan rituals and the function an athame serves in those rituals (which in all but the rarest of occasions is purely symbolic), I do not see how the form of the dagger would preclude its use as such, and still maintain the symbology could make this a very attractive acquisition for a well-to-do Wiccan, thus contributing to the realized price.

[David]

Gentlemen, i would hate to see us go off on a wild "green man" chase here much as we did with the "satanic dagger" posted some time back (Esmerelda and Notre Dame). Certainly there is no denying that the origins of the Green Man are a pagan one, but again, let me remind you all just how much the image has been used again and again throughout the British Isles in Christian iconography in churches. There is no parody in purpose for it's use in the architectural elements of some of England's classic churches.
http://www.google.com/images?q=green...w=1417&bih=689
Furthermore the Green Man plays an important role in Arthurian Legend, which, of course, we can find much paganism in, though it clearly was given renewed interest and attention in the Gothic Revival from which most of us seem to think this dagger originates from. Therefore i find nothing to support that this was ever intended to be a "pagan" blade, athame or otherwise.
Fearn is also indeed correct that an athame is specifically a double-edged blade so this clearly does not qualify.
Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting. So i don't think we can look to a well-off Wiccan as the reason this dagger sold for this price. Besides, though interested in it, no Wiccan would use a triple edged blade as an athame. This blade commanded this price for the same reason it commands our attention here. It is beautiful, unusual and well crafted. And allusions that we make to it having a pagan origin is pure unsupported conjecture. Though i equally have no proof to show it is not the case i believe that a logical examination of the interests of the Gothic Revival times and the art it produced should be enough of an explanation for the themes carved upon this dagger.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by David

Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting.

I guess that's my point... that the symbolism present on the dagger would make it a desirable acquisition for a practicing neopagan or Wiccan.

Of course it will be of interest to a collector or purveyor of antique arms and armor. I simply am stating the addition of other potential interested parties - again, due to the symbolism - may have contributed to the realized price.

[Ron Anderson]

Hi laEspada

It's possible. It would be a shame though. As no practicing Wiccan is likely to appreciate it for its true merits or its immense cultural and historical interest.

I can only hope it was bought by a collector. I am one collector who would have paid that price if it were legal or easy for me to import daggers of this type into Australia.

Ron

[Ron Anderson]

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

[fearn]

I'm not a Wiccan, but I figure that if members of any religion happens to hold a particular type of knife or sword sacred, it's really helpful to help them take proper care of their implements, whether it's a keris, an athame, a kirpan, or a druid grove's ceremonial sickles and swords.

We all like our blades, after all. No reason not to focus on our shared interests.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

[David]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

Ron, i think you might have underestimated how many practicing Wiccans (or other neo-pagans) have an intensive interest and understanding of particular forms of arms and armour.
Do i have to point out that Gerald Garnder, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons.
A sweeping generalization indeed...