Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

laEspadaAncha · 16th November 2010, 08:54 PM

While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form.

Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

Ron Anderson · 16th November 2010, 10:58 PM

Hi Archer

What a lovely item.

It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast.

In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother.

If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work.

I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge.

Of course, all this is speculative.

If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.

Ron Anderson · 16th November 2010, 11:14 PM

Sorry, I just noted that you don't own it.

My mistake.

laEspadaAncha · 16th November 2010, 11:43 PM

Hi Ron,

I guess I should have been a little more careful with my choice of words...

I would associate the symbolism (in particular the Green Man) with the Victorian-era Gothic revival movement and my comment as such was based on this observation. Maybe it is premature or incorrect to refer to it as a "reproduction," though I was under the (mistaken?) impression that by the turn of the 19th C., the use of stilettos had generally fallen out of favor, and associate the blade form with earlier (18th C.) preferences. In doing a little fact checking before posting this response, it appears there are references to the Gothic revival movement having actually begun earlier than I had thought.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 05:25 AM

hi laEspada

I completely understand. The phrase Victorian reproduction is a bit misleading, but it's a revival piece of sorts.

I will say I do have 19th century daggers with triangular blades, a little like this. It's more typical of French daggers I think.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 05:32 AM

The more I look at this, the more I like it.

it's a magnificent piece of work. I have an Indo-persian dagger with comparable cut steel etching, circa 1850.

I don't think the price on this is high at all.

Jim McDougall · 17th November 2010, 04:56 PM

The term 'Victorian Gothic' was primarily applied to the architectural phenomenon in England which seems to have evolved out of romanticism in England from about the 1740s. It would seem that there were leanings toward such romanticism already with the high society figures in England with the mysterious 'Hellfire Clubs' of c.1719 to well into the 18th century. As is well known, the so called Gothic novel came about in 1764 with Horace Walpoles "Castle of Otranto" which used the horror and foreboding atmosphere to great effect.
These Hellfire clubs were essentially a parody used in satirical sense toward religion, politics and other key contemporary matters, a sort of 'mens club' where wide range of otherwise socially unacceptable activities were engaged in.

When the Duke of Wharton, founder of the original club was chastized by the King and it was disbanded, he subsequently went into Freemasonry, then powerfully forming into the secretive fraternal brotherhood present in England, Scotland and France, expanding further internationally. The other developed versions of the 'club' remained active however, one of the most infamous that overseen by Sir Francis Dashwood from 1749 to around 1760-66.

These type of romanticized settings were the basis on which many aspects of neo Gothic classicism were formed, and which may be considered well in place in the 19th century. While we know Freemasonry was extremely well known by then, this weapon does not display symbolism particularly mindful of any of thier known themes. Still, mystery and illusion were extremely popular themes in many secretive socialogical deviations, which could of course include versions of occult and Wicca type groups. It is known that the much later Alastair Crowley even followed some of the ritual and ceremony from the hellfire groups.

Again, this dagger does not seem to have anything to do with the ever misunderstood and mysterious 'athame', and the only reason the term pagan was associated with the motif is the green man and dragon are known from those times. It does seem English, despite the baroque styling which even though associated with French was not only popular in England, but worked well with these Gothic themes.

The use of the stiletto was of course long obsolete, but just as with the also mysterious 'bombardiers stilettos' of Venice from much earlier, they survived as insignia of rank and as a secretive signal of insidious allusion. As there only artillery gunners were allowed to have such weapons, arcane symbols and measurements were engraved on many of these to suggest they were calibrated gunners stilettos, while actually the carrier was of more sinister purpose.

These are the kinds of allusions that may well be in place here, and the dagger may be considered made for or commissioned by someone of means and with purposes known to them, rather than a known type of dagger with more defined use.

The attachments are a gravestone, in variation of the green man theme using a skull, the Freemasons are keen on symbolism of the 'memento mori' (one day all will die). It is worthy of note that rebirth/ renaissance is often seen symbolized on weapons such has with the numbers 1414, which actually are from the Bible passage, when a man dies, shall he live again. The green man also carries rebirth symbolism.
The other is Sir Francis Dashwood, dressed as St. Francis of Assisi in a depiction of the allegorical themes often used in these clubs.

As usual, one of my own Gothic novels in describing this, but I like to write, so why not?

All the best,
Jim

17th November 2010, 04:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	The term 'Victorian Gothic' was primarily applied to the architectural phenomenon in England which seems to have evolved out of romanticism in England from about the 1740s. It would seem that there were leanings toward such romanticism already with the high society figures in England with the mysterious 'Hellfire Clubs' of c.1719 to well into the 18th century. As is well known, the so called Gothic novel came about in 1764 with Horace Walpoles "Castle of Otranto" which used the horror and foreboding atmosphere to great effect. These Hellfire clubs were essentially a parody used in satirical sense toward religion, politics and other key contemporary matters, a sort of 'mens club' where wide range of otherwise socially unacceptable activities were engaged in. When the Duke of Wharton, founder of the original club was chastized by the King and it was disbanded, he subsequently went into Freemasonry, then powerfully forming into the secretive fraternal brotherhood present in England, Scotland and France, expanding further internationally. The other developed versions of the 'club' remained active however, one of the most infamous that overseen by Sir Francis Dashwood from 1749 to around 1760-66. These type of romanticized settings were the basis on which many aspects of neo Gothic classicism were formed, and which may be considered well in place in the 19th century. While we know Freemasonry was extremely well known by then, this weapon does not display symbolism particularly mindful of any of thier known themes. Still, mystery and illusion were extremely popular themes in many secretive socialogical deviations, which could of course include versions of occult and Wicca type groups. It is known that the much later Alastair Crowley even followed some of the ritual and ceremony from the hellfire groups. Again, this dagger does not seem to have anything to do with the ever misunderstood and mysterious 'athame', and the only reason the term pagan was associated with the motif is the green man and dragon are known from those times. It does seem English, despite the baroque styling which even though associated with French was not only popular in England, but worked well with these Gothic themes. The use of the stiletto was of course long obsolete, but just as with the also mysterious 'bombardiers stilettos' of Venice from much earlier, they survived as insignia of rank and as a secretive signal of insidious allusion. As there only artillery gunners were allowed to have such weapons, arcane symbols and measurements were engraved on many of these to suggest they were calibrated gunners stilettos, while actually the carrier was of more sinister purpose. These are the kinds of allusions that may well be in place here, and the dagger may be considered made for or commissioned by someone of means and with purposes known to them, rather than a known type of dagger with more defined use. The attachments are a gravestone, in variation of the green man theme using a skull, the Freemasons are keen on symbolism of the 'memento mori' (one day all will die). It is worthy of note that rebirth/ renaissance is often seen symbolized on weapons such has with the numbers 1414, which actually are from the Bible passage, when a man dies, shall he live again. The green man also carries rebirth symbolism. The other is Sir Francis Dashwood, dressed as St. Francis of Assisi in a depiction of the allegorical themes often used in these clubs. As usual, one of my own Gothic novels in describing this, but I like to write, so why not? All the best, Jim Attached Images

16th November 2010, 08:54 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form. Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

16th November 2010, 10:58 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Archer What a lovely item. It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast. In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother. If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work. I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge. Of course, all this is speculative. If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.

16th November 2010, 11:14 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Sorry, I just noted that you don't own it. My mistake.

16th November 2010, 11:43 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Ron, I guess I should have been a little more careful with my choice of words... I would associate the symbolism (in particular the Green Man) with the Victorian-era Gothic revival movement and my comment as such was based on this observation. Maybe it is premature or incorrect to refer to it as a "reproduction," though I was under the (mistaken?) impression that by the turn of the 19th C., the use of stilettos had generally fallen out of favor, and associate the blade form with earlier (18th C.) preferences. In doing a little fact checking before posting this response, it appears there are references to the Gothic revival movement having actually begun earlier than I had thought.

17th November 2010, 05:25 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	hi laEspada I completely understand. The phrase Victorian reproduction is a bit misleading, but it's a revival piece of sorts. I will say I do have 19th century daggers with triangular blades, a little like this. It's more typical of French daggers I think.

17th November 2010, 05:32 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	The more I look at this, the more I like it. it's a magnificent piece of work. I have an Indo-persian dagger with comparable cut steel etching, circa 1850. I don't think the price on this is high at all.