Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

laEspadaAncha · 14th November 2010, 03:19 AM

Good call on the Green Man observation. Given the pagan / Celtic imagery (which while commonly associated with Celtic neopagan practices in the UK, was also known in Continental Europe), maybe it's an athame? I find the quality pieces with imagery associated with the wiccan religion usually command a good price.

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2010, 05:37 AM

This interesting little dagger is most likely a Victorian interpretation of the medieval dagger known as the misericorde. Essentially it was known as the 'dagger of mercy'. These narrow bladed daggers were meant to pierce vulnerable spots in armor to dispatch hopelessly wounded knights to save thier suffering and often used in close quarters combat similarly, though the veracity of such use of these may be largely myth.

This motif is intriguing as the 'green man' is indeed a pagan device, but was used a great deal in ecclesiastical architecture and motif, and particularly in the Victorian period during the neo Gothic revival trend. It apparantly was often seen used on the bottom of folding seats in churches which were termed the 'misericorde' (=mercy seat)as it provided support and some comfort for worshippers during long periods of standing during services.

The green man symbolism is thought to represent rebirth or revival, and it is interesting to see the 'misericorde' concept occur on these seats as well as on this 'mercy dagger'. The floral motif usually consists of leaves, which is presumably where the 'green' term applies. Interestingly the dragon, in chivalric legend is sometimes seen as a symbol of resurrection and of renaissance, particularly in the Golden Fleece legends. It may also be seen as a symbol of prudence.

It would be hard to say what purpose this dagger might have been intended to serve, but it seems extremely well made, and certainly would correspond with Victorian interest in legends of chivalry and the weapons used.

All the best,
Jim

archer · 14th November 2010, 06:06 AM

Hi, Thanks, my thought was that more than one thread on past forums dealt with the Green Man in several cultures. Try as i might searches came up without any information. Steve

David · 14th November 2010, 01:43 PM

Wow, that's a beautiful dagger.
Thanks Jim, for mentioning the use of the Green Man in churches throughout the British Isles. While this doesn't discount a pure pagan reference it shows the complexities of how pagan beliefs and lore linger in societies well after they turn for the most part to Christianity or other religions (you can still find many ancient pre-Islamic and even pre-Hindu beliefs still operating in Indonesia).
That said we can easily find strong pagan reference to both the Green Man and the Dragon, though i would say that it is more likely that this dagger was not designed as a ritual athame. One can also find strong references to Arthurian legend in these symbols. I am inclined to think this an English dagger.
This book might be interesting.

fearn · 16th November 2010, 07:27 PM

I concur that it's not an athame.

Athames in the Wiccan sense post-date Gerald Gardner and WWII (although in theory, there should be some older ones somewhere). Additionally, they are more likely to have black handles and various magical symbols on them. The blades are also likely to be one or two edged, not cruciform.

As the others have pointed out, the English have had a long fascination with various pagan symbols, so finding a dragon or green man in the decorations isn't a sign of a pagan tool.

Best,

F

laEspadaAncha · 16th November 2010, 08:54 PM

While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form.

Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

Ron Anderson · 16th November 2010, 10:58 PM

Hi Archer

What a lovely item.

It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast.

In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother.

If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work.

I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge.

Of course, all this is speculative.

If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.

14th November 2010, 06:06 AM	#3
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	reply Hi, Thanks, my thought was that more than one thread on past forums dealt with the Green Man in several cultures. Try as i might searches came up without any information. Steve

14th November 2010, 01:43 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,230	Wow, that's a beautiful dagger. Thanks Jim, for mentioning the use of the Green Man in churches throughout the British Isles. While this doesn't discount a pure pagan reference it shows the complexities of how pagan beliefs and lore linger in societies well after they turn for the most part to Christianity or other religions (you can still find many ancient pre-Islamic and even pre-Hindu beliefs still operating in Indonesia). That said we can easily find strong pagan reference to both the Green Man and the Dragon, though i would say that it is more likely that this dagger was not designed as a ritual athame. One can also find strong references to Arthurian legend in these symbols. I am inclined to think this an English dagger. This book might be interesting. Attached Images

14th November 2010, 03:19 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Good call on the Green Man observation. Given the pagan / Celtic imagery (which while commonly associated with Celtic neopagan practices in the UK, was also known in Continental Europe), maybe it's an athame? I find the quality pieces with imagery associated with the wiccan religion usually command a good price.

14th November 2010, 05:37 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	This interesting little dagger is most likely a Victorian interpretation of the medieval dagger known as the misericorde. Essentially it was known as the 'dagger of mercy'. These narrow bladed daggers were meant to pierce vulnerable spots in armor to dispatch hopelessly wounded knights to save thier suffering and often used in close quarters combat similarly, though the veracity of such use of these may be largely myth. This motif is intriguing as the 'green man' is indeed a pagan device, but was used a great deal in ecclesiastical architecture and motif, and particularly in the Victorian period during the neo Gothic revival trend. It apparantly was often seen used on the bottom of folding seats in churches which were termed the 'misericorde' (=mercy seat)as it provided support and some comfort for worshippers during long periods of standing during services. The green man symbolism is thought to represent rebirth or revival, and it is interesting to see the 'misericorde' concept occur on these seats as well as on this 'mercy dagger'. The floral motif usually consists of leaves, which is presumably where the 'green' term applies. Interestingly the dragon, in chivalric legend is sometimes seen as a symbol of resurrection and of renaissance, particularly in the Golden Fleece legends. It may also be seen as a symbol of prudence. It would be hard to say what purpose this dagger might have been intended to serve, but it seems extremely well made, and certainly would correspond with Victorian interest in legends of chivalry and the weapons used. All the best, Jim

16th November 2010, 07:27 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I concur that it's not an athame. Athames in the Wiccan sense post-date Gerald Gardner and WWII (although in theory, there should be some older ones somewhere). Additionally, they are more likely to have black handles and various magical symbols on them. The blades are also likely to be one or two edged, not cruciform. As the others have pointed out, the English have had a long fascination with various pagan symbols, so finding a dragon or green man in the decorations isn't a sign of a pagan tool. Best, F

16th November 2010, 08:54 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form. Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

16th November 2010, 10:58 PM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Archer What a lovely item. It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast. In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother. If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work. I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge. Of course, all this is speculative. If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.