Tatar saber for discussion

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 09:46 PM

I am just drooling all over my key board......
Will write something coherent later.

Rivkin · 20th June 2005, 12:19 AM

Fugh, I'm not an expert on turkology, so it can all be bs, but:

AFAIK tamga is usually just a signature. Turkish writing evolved from hieroglaphic to alphabet based, and so did the tamgas. There are 3 types of tamgas - consisting of one symbol (Type I). Usually these are the old ones, correspond to pictogramms or hieroglyphs. Very often have a totemic (or animistic) symbolism.Type II - tamgas consisting of two symbols that are symmetric or anti-symmetric to each other. These tamgas usually have to be understood as a combination of individual characters forming a word (with some of the vowels, especially initial vowels omitted). Why turks specifically liked symmetric writings (like swastika - two letters "a") I don't think anyone knows. The third type is tamgas composed of completely different letters, again these are already writing using an alphabet.

Concerning the first sword - these symbols can be tamga, or they can be not, I don't know. However in turkish alphabet this lazy n is usually "t" (however sometimes m or if looked from a different agnle -o and dz can be written quite similarly). Example - attached is an example from Karachai (turkish tribe from northern Caucasus).

Conerning the second sword - that's a classical tamga, probably modified Type II (symmetric with respect to one axis, anti-symmetric with respect to another). The letters involved seem to be "a or ae" and "n".

I'm not an expert in tatar to know which word exactly they coded like this...
Concerning family names - nothing comes up immediately, unfortunately because the letters are very popular ones, there are dozens of tamgas that use at least one of these letters + something else - for example a circassian tamga on the second picture, but did not yet find something exactly like this.

Rivkin · 20th June 2005, 03:14 AM

Another lazy n (this time it's "m" ?). From the writings of ancient bulgars.

And one more thing - eastern turks (I guess our tatars ?) write from right to left. Western (bulgars etc.) from left to right.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2005, 06:03 AM

Kirill,
Thanks very much for this excellent data on tamgas! Since these typically dont occur very often on the swords from these regions, this has not been a hot topic in research for some time (the research my material is from dates from over 8 years ago!!). Its great to have the topic reopened, especially with these fantastic examples. Excellent input!
All the best,
Jim

20th June 2005, 12:19 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Fugh, I'm not an expert on turkology, so it can all be bs, but: AFAIK tamga is usually just a signature. Turkish writing evolved from hieroglaphic to alphabet based, and so did the tamgas. There are 3 types of tamgas - consisting of one symbol (Type I). Usually these are the old ones, correspond to pictogramms or hieroglyphs. Very often have a totemic (or animistic) symbolism.Type II - tamgas consisting of two symbols that are symmetric or anti-symmetric to each other. These tamgas usually have to be understood as a combination of individual characters forming a word (with some of the vowels, especially initial vowels omitted). Why turks specifically liked symmetric writings (like swastika - two letters "a") I don't think anyone knows. The third type is tamgas composed of completely different letters, again these are already writing using an alphabet. Concerning the first sword - these symbols can be tamga, or they can be not, I don't know. However in turkish alphabet this lazy n is usually "t" (however sometimes m or if looked from a different agnle -o and dz can be written quite similarly). Example - attached is an example from Karachai (turkish tribe from northern Caucasus). Conerning the second sword - that's a classical tamga, probably modified Type II (symmetric with respect to one axis, anti-symmetric with respect to another). The letters involved seem to be "a or ae" and "n". I'm not an expert in tatar to know which word exactly they coded like this... Concerning family names - nothing comes up immediately, unfortunately because the letters are very popular ones, there are dozens of tamgas that use at least one of these letters + something else - for example a circassian tamga on the second picture, but did not yet find something exactly like this. Attached Images Last edited by Rivkin; 20th June 2005 at 03:18 AM.

20th June 2005, 03:14 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Another lazy n (this time it's "m" ?). From the writings of ancient bulgars. And one more thing - eastern turks (I guess our tatars ?) write from right to left. Western (bulgars etc.) from left to right. Attached Images Last edited by Rivkin; 20th June 2005 at 03:31 AM.

19th June 2005, 09:46 PM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	I am just drooling all over my key board...... Will write something coherent later.

20th June 2005, 06:03 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Kirill, Thanks very much for this excellent data on tamgas! Since these typically dont occur very often on the swords from these regions, this has not been a hot topic in research for some time (the research my material is from dates from over 8 years ago!!). Its great to have the topic reopened, especially with these fantastic examples. Excellent input! All the best, Jim