machetes,, regional styles..

Rick · 8th November 2010, 11:41 PM

" Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). "

There you go then, eh ?
I got my information from an Industry trade magazine from the late 40's . There was a picture intensive article about the Collins company .
One photo showed a worker dipping the blades into some molten liquid .
The caption mentioned they were tempered in lead .
Carter Rila may now possess this issue; or it is in my library ..somewhere .

Right now the house is all ahoo with remodeling; should I stumble across the magazine ,(if still in my library) I will be more than glad to reference the publication .

Gonzalo G · 11th November 2010, 05:47 AM

Well, I don´t know if the response by Billman was directed to me, but there are several points to answer.

I never said that the machetes were pre-hispanic. Obviously they were not, since there was not iron metallurgy in America as to make this kind of blades. Tough initial development of some kind of iron working in some American pre-hispanic areas is actually discussed, it is without doubt that iron weaponry came with the spaniards, and this a too well known fact. What I said, is that they were Spanish-colonial, which is a very different matter. Of course, the machetes, or some of their components, were manufacturated just latter in the American colonies.

On other side, there is a contradiction in saying that the machetes were used in whatever is uderstood by some authors as "Central America" (singular), and saying that the early word used to designate this item was "matchet", as it does not come from any Spanish or native American word; and in this specific philological matter I prefer the studies made by spanish-speaking scholars. If in english this word was, or is, used, it is irrelevant to the purpose of establishing the origin of the word machete itself, as this last word was forged from the spanish castilian and has no traces of American indian roots. Maybe the original word from the castilian was mispelled or misunderstood when passed to the english in some era, after the 16th century, as it was often in castilian with many names from other languajes. Or maybe there was another weapon known as matchet somewhere else.

As far as I know, the machete is not as old as the 16th century, at least with this name. It is not included in any relation, reference, inventory, law, guild regulation or Spanish document from that epoch, or in the actual researches made by the Spanish scholars on this subject about that epoch. I would like to see any research or primary source in english about machetes from the 16th century, apart from actual third party references. Of course, in english some authors make their own studies and classifications of the Spanish colonial weapons, more often than not having any knowledge of the Spanish sources, or even any knowledge about the spanish-castilian languaje, so that naturally great gaps and strange classifications and misunderstandings appear, as in the case of the so-called "Caribbean Rapier". And very recently enough on this forum some machetes (they were believed to be swords) were a mystery and no reference was found among the english-speaking authors or scholars about them, and speculations were made about their origin in all the continents except Europe. Of course there is a lot of research to do. But first it is necessary to know the actual, existing, sources in other languajes, and there are MANY books and articles about Spanish, Spanish-colonial and Latin American Weapons which are not read in the anglo-saxon world due language-related problems.

Speaking of the Portuguese, it is known that Portugal was once part of the Spanish Empire. I don´t know to a which point the Portuguese weapons were influenced by the Spanish, since I don´t have knowledge about the Portuguese weapons, but for a minumum. In this sense, I also don´t know if the use of the machete among the Portuguese came from the Spanish people, or from other source, but this last case is unlikely.

The machete has much of a relation with the labour in the field, no matter if the workers were slaves or not. I must state that the use of slavery in Mexico AND Central America was not intensive, and though some black decendants do exist today, already much mixed with indians and the so called "caucasian", they are few. In the case of other Latin American countries is a different case. Cuba in the Spanish Caribbean, Peru, Colombia and Venezuela, and also the portuguese Brasil, those last in South America, were cases of a much more intensive use of the black slave labour. The presence of black people in Panama (Central America) came from South America. But the use of the machete was also very widely difussed, and still is, among the aboriginal indians (again: this, does not remotely mean that they had machetes before the arrival of the Spaniards) and in general among all the rural population.

There is also a contradiction in saying that the first machetes were from the 16th century, and saying that it is not actually known if the first machetes were made locally in "Central Americas" (whatever that means) or in in the "home country", since in other part of this post is said, accurately, that in this time America has not a developed iron-steel metallurgy, and I must add, not even from meterorites. Of course the first machetes were made on Spain. There is no doubt about it. At least, not among the spanish speaking people. Although the city-state Tenochtitlan was conquered at the beginning of the 16th century, the rest of the conquest lasted at least the rest of the 16th century and there was no Spanish production of blades in Mexico in that time, and less in Central America, mostly unexplored. Perhaps Spanish blades were rehilted or modified if broken to make smaller weapons. The older references we have about the machetes, among others, come from old royal ordinances regulating their extensive use in the Spanish army, when machetes were already well known there from time ago. The first known models were items with handguards and very diverse forms of blades, not having other thing in common but for beign shorter than a Spanish sword of that time. Not a specific morphology in any way, except for the size, and they could be shorter versions of swords, without resemblance to the latter machetes.

Also, the resemblance of the machete with the naval cutlass is just that, and the naval cutlass also it is not a product of the 16th century or before (the century given by the reference), as to be the ancestor of the machete. There is no genealogical relation. The Spanish navy had not, as far as I know, any regulated patterns of naval machete before the appearance to the first models, and the older ordinances about this subject are established extensively just for the army forces (on land, of course), probably before the appearance of the cutlasses. Any of the very diverse forms of earlier machetes does not resemble a naval cutlass, especially in the forms of the hilts. There are extensive articles about this machetes, and books where they are referenced and illustrated. And speaking about their ancestry, Spain had its own long tradition with this kind of shorter weapons, specially from arabic influence, as the terciados and the so-called alfanjes and scimitars, though those last two terms only generically designated in Spanish shorter weapons, some of them curved, and as I see it there is no actual agreement about all their specific forms. In any case, part of actual Spain was dominated by the Arabs to the 15th century, a fact which gave to the Spanish kingdoms the opportunity to have both all the influences form Europe, and those from Nort Africa and the Middle East, which was reflected on their weaponry and tools. On other side, the very close relation of the terciado with the alfanje and machete was already established by German Dueñas Beraiz, one of the main living scholars on Spanish weapons, in his "Introducción al Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas: Siglos XVI Y XVII" (Introduction to the Typological Study of the Spanish Swords: 16th and 17th Centuries) , in Gladius, No. XXIV, 2004, pp.209-260. This article is open in the site of Gladius. There are also some articles about ordinance machetes of the Spanish Army in this website, to which years ago I already posted a link in this forum:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp

I could also post an original bibliography on Spanish weapons, including the machetes, although of course, all this material is writen in spanish language. There is a lot of research on this sources and not speculation. There are, also, the open sources like the indispensable Gladius, which can be consulted for free in internet, with some articles written in english and french, though most of them in spanish.

On the other side, the Spanish had no much contact with South Asia, except through the Portugese, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the south asian weapons and tools have influenced to a minimal point the Spanish production, and none of the abundant sources remotely consider this possible influence. All this, despite the existing trade with wootz from India to Spain to the mid-19th century.

The bill hooked blades never were called "machetes" in America. They do were used, but recived other names. In Mexico, they are still used in working with the magueyes (agaves from which are extracted fibers, honey of some kind consumed as beverage or fermented to make pulque, an aboriginal alcoholic beverage, and from their hearts is also extracted by boiling a liquid which properly destilated produces mezcal and its specific variety named tequila)

Finally, I only need to emphasize that I said before that the machete AS WE ACTUALLY KNOW IT, probably comes from a Mexican-Central America development, though a development made from Spanish-colonial era which latter evolved in specific local models or variants, some of them very large in relation to the original and as long as a saber, though the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language still continues to define the machete as a short edged "heavy" weapon (meaning: shorter than a sword or saber).

Ref: Tempering
Blades can, and are, actually tempered in molten lead by bladesmiths, although of course the lead is aloyed with tin to produce a lower point of melting, since the temperature of 350-400 centigrades could be undesirable, depending on the kind of steel. Anyway, this procedure is normalyy called "tempering in lead" and the word "alloy" is usually implied, as it is also when we refer to the steel with this single word, no matter if it is aloyed or not with other metals, and so I think the reference made by Rick is accurate. More normally, hardening-quenching is made by heathing the steel in a forge or oven and then cooling in water or oil at room temperature, though in a serial process the water or oil warms after several quenchings and they must be cooled. Latter, tempering is made heating usually up to the 250 centigrades AND ABOVE 260 centigrades. But what I meant, is that the red-heated steel could be also cooled in molten lead alloy (or in a salt bath) slightly above its point of melting calculated for this alloy in the 250 centigrades (though the alloy would be mostly tin), so the blade could be hardened and tempered in the same operation. It can work fine to get a flexible blade not too hard to be brittle. Heat treatments as quenchin-tempering are made at HIGHER temperatures (for example, in the range of the 250-300 centigrades and even SLIGHTLY above, lets say. during three hours, for a 5160 steel) to get bainite instead martensite (austempering) in other alloy with a bigger content of lead. This procedure has become popular among recognized anglosaxon bladesmiths not many years ago, although most of them use hot salt baths due several reasons, since it permits: to obtain enough good hardness, supressing at the same time the risk of broken or cracked blades produced sometimes during the usual quenching-hardening; to minimize or supress the scab produced normally on the surface of the blades quenched-hardened through the usual process (which is a tedious problem to clean by file and sand, even with power bandsanders); to produce a tough blade difficult to breake under stress; to get less deformations on the blades than those produced by the usual process of water-oil quenching-hardening, and to eliminate the need of a further tempering. This is why I wrote about wondering if the blades were "hardened" or "tempered" in the words quoted by Rick, since these words can carry different meanings in terms of temperature of the alloy and since the blades could be tempered after quenched, or in the same step it could be obtained both results by dipping in molten lead (alloy) from 240 to 300 centigrades, as the blade gets its martensite or bainite hardness, and also its temper. Temperatures below the 100 centigrades can also be recommended to quench some steel blades, but in this case warm oil is used and further tempering is made. I only wondered about the specific word without further complicated explanations, as I don´t have much time to connect to internet and my post was already long at that moment (this one I better made it in home to avoid at least many undesirable mistakes).

So, my comment to Rick was originated in my need to know which procedure used Collins, and IT WAS NOT A CORRECTION to him. I apologize to Rick by my unclear comment. This is also why latter in the week I wrote him privately a message, asking for more information, as it can not be excluded the possibility that Collins even worked to get bainite instead martensite, as I believe it is not a modern process, as some bladesmiths claim. And this is interesting for me because, as an amateur, I make long blades and also have interest in the history of the metallurgy related to the edged weapons, especially in the presence of so many unclear areas related to their chemical and physical properties and elaboration procedures.

Thank you for your attention
Regards

Gonzalo

Rick · 11th November 2010, 12:47 PM

Please, do not worry about me Gonzalo .

If I hadn't dropped that casual comment about the lead we might never have entered this fascinating technical discussion on tempering; thanks !

Rick

Billman · 11th November 2010, 01:21 PM

Gonzalo, thank you for your long and detailed response. It is always good to have different points of view, especially with reference to historical research. The use of the word machete in the 16th century, in the OED, does not give the context - the full OED would, but mine is the two volume abridged - so I can only give the first reference for the word, and of course it may relate to something other than what we today call a machete...

I know that in the UK molten lead was used to anneal the tangs of files that had been hardened to glass hard - this allowed the tang to be quickly heated without the heat transferring more than a 1/2" (say 15mm) beyond the shoulder of the file.

Most edge tools prior to about 1870 were made by forge welding carbon steel to a wrought iron or mild steel body. This process continued in many small forges well into the 20th century, and is still being carried on in the forge of Bernard Solon, the last traditional taillandier, working in Orléans, France. All-steel tools, usually stamped 'cast steel' or 'solid steel', were not widely available before the late 19th century, and after Bessemer and Siemnens Martins steels became widely available.

It was not until the early 20th century that alloy steels were used for edge tools... Hardening and temering of plain carbon steels involves quenching from red heat and then reheating to a much lower temperature to temper the blade... even with a soft steel or iron body, most makers still tempered the edge, even if only lightly, to remove brittleness. Tempering was often carried out in a bed of hot sand...

Modern steels may be capable of being hardened and tempered in one process, but most that contain over 1% of carbon still require some type of quenching to retain keep the cementite from reverting to pearlite if hardness, as required in a cutting edge, is needed.

I will need to research further into the use of lead or lead alloys for either hardening or tempering.. It may be that Collins were using the same technnique as file makers, and only annealing the tang area of the blade to further soften it to resist shock...

Lee · 11th November 2010, 04:52 PM

Camillus Cutlery (in village of same name in upstate New York) - now closed for a few years - used molten lead at a stage in their blade heat treatment process. I had the privilege of a tour courtesy of the consultant overseeing QA for the larger Cold Steel brand knives that were made there at the time and I recall seeing the pots in use and a brief discussion about safety concerns and measures taken with the material.

Billman · 12th November 2010, 01:49 PM

Information on lead for hardening and tempering at http://www.7now.com/tempering_steel.htm

I think part of the problem is the use of the term tempering - in the UK it is the name of the process used after hardening to reduce brittleness and increase toughness.

In the USA it appears to be used for the process of annealing, i.e. stress relieving or softenening of the steel to allow another process to be carried out, such as drawing or cold-working:

1. The method of producing steel wire (particularly suitable for the manufacture of coiled springs) comprising forming steel rod by hot rolling, oil tempering the rod as produced in the hot rolling operation, without drawing the rod, by passing it through an austenitizing step, an oil-quenching step, and a tempering step, cold-drawing the resultant oil-tempered rod into wire, and coiling the wire

link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4568394.html

In this process the steel is tempered at 600 to 1000 degrees F (approx 300 to 450 degrees C). I was always taught to harden wood chisels at straw colour (230C 450F), axes at brown/purple (270C 520F) and springs at blue (300C 570F) - that is the colour of the oxide film seen on cleaned steel.

Steel starts to turn red at 400C 750F - plain carbon steels are quenched to harden at about 700C 1300F.

I cannot see how molten lead, or even a lead tin alloy, can be used for tempering of hardened carbon steel - the temparature control is too critical...

In small forges, as used commercially in Europe up to the mid 20th century, and still in use elsewhere, hardening usually took place in oil - whale oil being preferred, but fish oil and other oils also used. Today used car or lorry engine oil is often substituted... If oil was not available a strong brine solution was used, and failing that water. Some forges preferred water, but most smiths thought it cooled too quickly and could lead to cracking on small pieces, and it also vapourised on large pieces, creating an insulating barrier of steam between the work and the water, thus delaying cooling....

Much hardening and tempering was seen as a 'magical' art, and most smiths kept their methods secret, often even from their own staff and apprentices...
In the UK, the Moss family from Hampshire, when they sold their trademarks, patterns and goodwill to Elwell, an industrial manufacturer from the Birmingham area, also sold their 'secret' of hardening and tempering.

In the USA, one smith gave up making tools, and handed over the business to his son after having to learn the hardening and tempering business for a third time after his supplier (and thus the qualities and properties) of the iron and steel he used had changed yet again.... Despite years of experience, he had had enough and was not prepared to invest the required time in experimenting on how to harden and temper the new steels (sorry cannot remember the link - it was on one of the better USA collectors or clubs sites).

Pukka Bundook · 13th November 2010, 01:47 PM

Interesting thread!

Billman,

In your first post in this thread, you mentioned the bill-hook becoming the slasher of England.
Just wanted to say that the bill-hook and slasher are used in conjunction, and are still separate tools, even today.
We used both for cutting hedges, the bill for hedge-laying, or dealing with thicker more resistant wood, and the slasher for cutting the springy newer growth.
As this is a bit off topic, I'll say no more, but just wanted to clarify....

Best,
R.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 11th December 2010, 05:10 PM

Machete, you said Machete ...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0985694/

tom hyle · 10th March 2011, 01:09 AM

as I've mentioned before in this matter, the introduction of iron-working into the Caribean/Americas was not just by Europeans, but also by those other "Westerners" the Africans who accompanied the Europeans. These people retained considerable of their own customs and practices, and I think this significantly informs the development of the thin-bladed machete, including hook-bladed forms. I've seen antique hook-blade Caribean and N American work swords with features that clearly hark to the fighting mambeles of the Congo region. The thinness often noted in African weapons is a very functional characteristic in fast movement and deep cutting (less friction/wedging)

Billman · 12th November 2010, 05:03 PM

More on lead tempering:

It ws used on the backs of knife blades, but a spirit lamp was used for the edge...

The Hardeneing and Temering of Steel by Fridolin Reiser page 96

link http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=W...dening&f=false

More in Gunsmithing by Roy E Dunlap pages 121 to 122

link: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7...pering&f=false

but again although he mentions tempering in a bath of molten lead for small parts, the main procees described is the previous stage of hardening...

More on melting points, and salts used in the molten state for tempering at

http://www.weights-and-measures.com/xcommetalsalt.html

More on tempering of steels at

http://www.toolmakers-microscope.com...nd-alloys.html

11th November 2010, 01:21 PM	#4
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Gonzalo, thank you for your long and detailed response. It is always good to have different points of view, especially with reference to historical research. The use of the word machete in the 16th century, in the OED, does not give the context - the full OED would, but mine is the two volume abridged - so I can only give the first reference for the word, and of course it may relate to something other than what we today call a machete... I know that in the UK molten lead was used to anneal the tangs of files that had been hardened to glass hard - this allowed the tang to be quickly heated without the heat transferring more than a 1/2" (say 15mm) beyond the shoulder of the file. Most edge tools prior to about 1870 were made by forge welding carbon steel to a wrought iron or mild steel body. This process continued in many small forges well into the 20th century, and is still being carried on in the forge of Bernard Solon, the last traditional taillandier, working in Orléans, France. All-steel tools, usually stamped 'cast steel' or 'solid steel', were not widely available before the late 19th century, and after Bessemer and Siemnens Martins steels became widely available. It was not until the early 20th century that alloy steels were used for edge tools... Hardening and temering of plain carbon steels involves quenching from red heat and then reheating to a much lower temperature to temper the blade... even with a soft steel or iron body, most makers still tempered the edge, even if only lightly, to remove brittleness. Tempering was often carried out in a bed of hot sand... Modern steels may be capable of being hardened and tempered in one process, but most that contain over 1% of carbon still require some type of quenching to retain keep the cementite from reverting to pearlite if hardness, as required in a cutting edge, is needed. I will need to research further into the use of lead or lead alloys for either hardening or tempering.. It may be that Collins were using the same technnique as file makers, and only annealing the tang area of the blade to further soften it to resist shock... Last edited by Billman; 12th November 2010 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Spelling

8th November 2010, 11:41 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	" Ref Collins tempering blades in lead - lead melts at 327.46 degrees Celsius - far too high a temperature for tempering steel (150 to 260 degrees) - it stays in a molten state long enough for steel to reach red heat, so could be used for heating steel prior to hardening (it boils at 1749 degrees). " There you go then, eh ? I got my information from an Industry trade magazine from the late 40's . There was a picture intensive article about the Collins company . One photo showed a worker dipping the blades into some molten liquid . The caption mentioned they were tempered in lead . Carter Rila may now possess this issue; or it is in my library ..somewhere . Right now the house is all ahoo with remodeling; should I stumble across the magazine ,(if still in my library) I will be more than glad to reference the publication .

11th November 2010, 05:47 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Well, I don´t know if the response by Billman was directed to me, but there are several points to answer. I never said that the machetes were pre-hispanic. Obviously they were not, since there was not iron metallurgy in America as to make this kind of blades. Tough initial development of some kind of iron working in some American pre-hispanic areas is actually discussed, it is without doubt that iron weaponry came with the spaniards, and this a too well known fact. What I said, is that they were Spanish-colonial, which is a very different matter. Of course, the machetes, or some of their components, were manufacturated just latter in the American colonies. On other side, there is a contradiction in saying that the machetes were used in whatever is uderstood by some authors as "Central America" (singular), and saying that the early word used to designate this item was "matchet", as it does not come from any Spanish or native American word; and in this specific philological matter I prefer the studies made by spanish-speaking scholars. If in english this word was, or is, used, it is irrelevant to the purpose of establishing the origin of the word machete itself, as this last word was forged from the spanish castilian and has no traces of American indian roots. Maybe the original word from the castilian was mispelled or misunderstood when passed to the english in some era, after the 16th century, as it was often in castilian with many names from other languajes. Or maybe there was another weapon known as matchet somewhere else. As far as I know, the machete is not as old as the 16th century, at least with this name. It is not included in any relation, reference, inventory, law, guild regulation or Spanish document from that epoch, or in the actual researches made by the Spanish scholars on this subject about that epoch. I would like to see any research or primary source in english about machetes from the 16th century, apart from actual third party references. Of course, in english some authors make their own studies and classifications of the Spanish colonial weapons, more often than not having any knowledge of the Spanish sources, or even any knowledge about the spanish-castilian languaje, so that naturally great gaps and strange classifications and misunderstandings appear, as in the case of the so-called "Caribbean Rapier". And very recently enough on this forum some machetes (they were believed to be swords) were a mystery and no reference was found among the english-speaking authors or scholars about them, and speculations were made about their origin in all the continents except Europe. Of course there is a lot of research to do. But first it is necessary to know the actual, existing, sources in other languajes, and there are MANY books and articles about Spanish, Spanish-colonial and Latin American Weapons which are not read in the anglo-saxon world due language-related problems. Speaking of the Portuguese, it is known that Portugal was once part of the Spanish Empire. I don´t know to a which point the Portuguese weapons were influenced by the Spanish, since I don´t have knowledge about the Portuguese weapons, but for a minumum. In this sense, I also don´t know if the use of the machete among the Portuguese came from the Spanish people, or from other source, but this last case is unlikely. The machete has much of a relation with the labour in the field, no matter if the workers were slaves or not. I must state that the use of slavery in Mexico AND Central America was not intensive, and though some black decendants do exist today, already much mixed with indians and the so called "caucasian", they are few. In the case of other Latin American countries is a different case. Cuba in the Spanish Caribbean, Peru, Colombia and Venezuela, and also the portuguese Brasil, those last in South America, were cases of a much more intensive use of the black slave labour. The presence of black people in Panama (Central America) came from South America. But the use of the machete was also very widely difussed, and still is, among the aboriginal indians (again: this, does not remotely mean that they had machetes before the arrival of the Spaniards) and in general among all the rural population. There is also a contradiction in saying that the first machetes were from the 16th century, and saying that it is not actually known if the first machetes were made locally in "Central Americas" (whatever that means) or in in the "home country", since in other part of this post is said, accurately, that in this time America has not a developed iron-steel metallurgy, and I must add, not even from meterorites. Of course the first machetes were made on Spain. There is no doubt about it. At least, not among the spanish speaking people. Although the city-state Tenochtitlan was conquered at the beginning of the 16th century, the rest of the conquest lasted at least the rest of the 16th century and there was no Spanish production of blades in Mexico in that time, and less in Central America, mostly unexplored. Perhaps Spanish blades were rehilted or modified if broken to make smaller weapons. The older references we have about the machetes, among others, come from old royal ordinances regulating their extensive use in the Spanish army, when machetes were already well known there from time ago. The first known models were items with handguards and very diverse forms of blades, not having other thing in common but for beign shorter than a Spanish sword of that time. Not a specific morphology in any way, except for the size, and they could be shorter versions of swords, without resemblance to the latter machetes. Also, the resemblance of the machete with the naval cutlass is just that, and the naval cutlass also it is not a product of the 16th century or before (the century given by the reference), as to be the ancestor of the machete. There is no genealogical relation. The Spanish navy had not, as far as I know, any regulated patterns of naval machete before the appearance to the first models, and the older ordinances about this subject are established extensively just for the army forces (on land, of course), probably before the appearance of the cutlasses. Any of the very diverse forms of earlier machetes does not resemble a naval cutlass, especially in the forms of the hilts. There are extensive articles about this machetes, and books where they are referenced and illustrated. And speaking about their ancestry, Spain had its own long tradition with this kind of shorter weapons, specially from arabic influence, as the terciados and the so-called alfanjes and scimitars, though those last two terms only generically designated in Spanish shorter weapons, some of them curved, and as I see it there is no actual agreement about all their specific forms. In any case, part of actual Spain was dominated by the Arabs to the 15th century, a fact which gave to the Spanish kingdoms the opportunity to have both all the influences form Europe, and those from Nort Africa and the Middle East, which was reflected on their weaponry and tools. On other side, the very close relation of the terciado with the alfanje and machete was already established by German Dueñas Beraiz, one of the main living scholars on Spanish weapons, in his "Introducción al Estudio Tipológico de las Espadas Españolas: Siglos XVI Y XVII" (Introduction to the Typological Study of the Spanish Swords: 16th and 17th Centuries) , in Gladius, No. XXIV, 2004, pp.209-260. This article is open in the site of Gladius. There are also some articles about ordinance machetes of the Spanish Army in this website, to which years ago I already posted a link in this forum: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp I could also post an original bibliography on Spanish weapons, including the machetes, although of course, all this material is writen in spanish language. There is a lot of research on this sources and not speculation. There are, also, the open sources like the indispensable Gladius, which can be consulted for free in internet, with some articles written in english and french, though most of them in spanish. On the other side, the Spanish had no much contact with South Asia, except through the Portugese, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the south asian weapons and tools have influenced to a minimal point the Spanish production, and none of the abundant sources remotely consider this possible influence. All this, despite the existing trade with wootz from India to Spain to the mid-19th century. The bill hooked blades never were called "machetes" in America. They do were used, but recived other names. In Mexico, they are still used in working with the magueyes (agaves from which are extracted fibers, honey of some kind consumed as beverage or fermented to make pulque, an aboriginal alcoholic beverage, and from their hearts is also extracted by boiling a liquid which properly destilated produces mezcal and its specific variety named tequila) Finally, I only need to emphasize that I said before that the machete AS WE ACTUALLY KNOW IT, probably comes from a Mexican-Central America development, though a development made from Spanish-colonial era which latter evolved in specific local models or variants, some of them very large in relation to the original and as long as a saber, though the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language still continues to define the machete as a short edged "heavy" weapon (meaning: shorter than a sword or saber). Ref: Tempering Blades can, and are, actually tempered in molten lead by bladesmiths, although of course the lead is aloyed with tin to produce a lower point of melting, since the temperature of 350-400 centigrades could be undesirable, depending on the kind of steel. Anyway, this procedure is normalyy called "tempering in lead" and the word "alloy" is usually implied, as it is also when we refer to the steel with this single word, no matter if it is aloyed or not with other metals, and so I think the reference made by Rick is accurate. More normally, hardening-quenching is made by heathing the steel in a forge or oven and then cooling in water or oil at room temperature, though in a serial process the water or oil warms after several quenchings and they must be cooled. Latter, tempering is made heating usually up to the 250 centigrades AND ABOVE 260 centigrades. But what I meant, is that the red-heated steel could be also cooled in molten lead alloy (or in a salt bath) slightly above its point of melting calculated for this alloy in the 250 centigrades (though the alloy would be mostly tin), so the blade could be hardened and tempered in the same operation. It can work fine to get a flexible blade not too hard to be brittle. Heat treatments as quenchin-tempering are made at HIGHER temperatures (for example, in the range of the 250-300 centigrades and even SLIGHTLY above, lets say. during three hours, for a 5160 steel) to get bainite instead martensite (austempering) in other alloy with a bigger content of lead. This procedure has become popular among recognized anglosaxon bladesmiths not many years ago, although most of them use hot salt baths due several reasons, since it permits: to obtain enough good hardness, supressing at the same time the risk of broken or cracked blades produced sometimes during the usual quenching-hardening; to minimize or supress the scab produced normally on the surface of the blades quenched-hardened through the usual process (which is a tedious problem to clean by file and sand, even with power bandsanders); to produce a tough blade difficult to breake under stress; to get less deformations on the blades than those produced by the usual process of water-oil quenching-hardening, and to eliminate the need of a further tempering. This is why I wrote about wondering if the blades were "hardened" or "tempered" in the words quoted by Rick, since these words can carry different meanings in terms of temperature of the alloy and since the blades could be tempered after quenched, or in the same step it could be obtained both results by dipping in molten lead (alloy) from 240 to 300 centigrades, as the blade gets its martensite or bainite hardness, and also its temper. Temperatures below the 100 centigrades can also be recommended to quench some steel blades, but in this case warm oil is used and further tempering is made. I only wondered about the specific word without further complicated explanations, as I don´t have much time to connect to internet and my post was already long at that moment (this one I better made it in home to avoid at least many undesirable mistakes). So, my comment to Rick was originated in my need to know which procedure used Collins, and IT WAS NOT A CORRECTION to him. I apologize to Rick by my unclear comment. This is also why latter in the week I wrote him privately a message, asking for more information, as it can not be excluded the possibility that Collins even worked to get bainite instead martensite, as I believe it is not a modern process, as some bladesmiths claim. And this is interesting for me because, as an amateur, I make long blades and also have interest in the history of the metallurgy related to the edged weapons, especially in the presence of so many unclear areas related to their chemical and physical properties and elaboration procedures. Thank you for your attention Regards Gonzalo

11th November 2010, 12:47 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Please, do not worry about me Gonzalo . If I hadn't dropped that casual comment about the lead we might never have entered this fascinating technical discussion on tempering; thanks ! Rick

11th November 2010, 04:52 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 942	Camillus Cutlery (in village of same name in upstate New York) - now closed for a few years - used molten lead at a stage in their blade heat treatment process. I had the privilege of a tour courtesy of the consultant overseeing QA for the larger Cold Steel brand knives that were made there at the time and I recall seeing the pots in use and a brief discussion about safety concerns and measures taken with the material.

12th November 2010, 01:49 PM	#6
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Information on lead for hardening and tempering at http://www.7now.com/tempering_steel.htm I think part of the problem is the use of the term tempering - in the UK it is the name of the process used after hardening to reduce brittleness and increase toughness. In the USA it appears to be used for the process of annealing, i.e. stress relieving or softenening of the steel to allow another process to be carried out, such as drawing or cold-working: 1. The method of producing steel wire (particularly suitable for the manufacture of coiled springs) comprising forming steel rod by hot rolling, oil tempering the rod as produced in the hot rolling operation, without drawing the rod, by passing it through an austenitizing step, an oil-quenching step, and a tempering step, cold-drawing the resultant oil-tempered rod into wire, and coiling the wire link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4568394.html In this process the steel is tempered at 600 to 1000 degrees F (approx 300 to 450 degrees C). I was always taught to harden wood chisels at straw colour (230C 450F), axes at brown/purple (270C 520F) and springs at blue (300C 570F) - that is the colour of the oxide film seen on cleaned steel. Steel starts to turn red at 400C 750F - plain carbon steels are quenched to harden at about 700C 1300F. I cannot see how molten lead, or even a lead tin alloy, can be used for tempering of hardened carbon steel - the temparature control is too critical... In small forges, as used commercially in Europe up to the mid 20th century, and still in use elsewhere, hardening usually took place in oil - whale oil being preferred, but fish oil and other oils also used. Today used car or lorry engine oil is often substituted... If oil was not available a strong brine solution was used, and failing that water. Some forges preferred water, but most smiths thought it cooled too quickly and could lead to cracking on small pieces, and it also vapourised on large pieces, creating an insulating barrier of steam between the work and the water, thus delaying cooling.... Much hardening and tempering was seen as a 'magical' art, and most smiths kept their methods secret, often even from their own staff and apprentices... In the UK, the Moss family from Hampshire, when they sold their trademarks, patterns and goodwill to Elwell, an industrial manufacturer from the Birmingham area, also sold their 'secret' of hardening and tempering. In the USA, one smith gave up making tools, and handed over the business to his son after having to learn the hardening and tempering business for a third time after his supplier (and thus the qualities and properties) of the iron and steel he used had changed yet again.... Despite years of experience, he had had enough and was not prepared to invest the required time in experimenting on how to harden and temper the new steels (sorry cannot remember the link - it was on one of the better USA collectors or clubs sites).

13th November 2010, 01:47 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Interesting thread! Billman, In your first post in this thread, you mentioned the bill-hook becoming the slasher of England. Just wanted to say that the bill-hook and slasher are used in conjunction, and are still separate tools, even today. We used both for cutting hedges, the bill for hedge-laying, or dealing with thicker more resistant wood, and the slasher for cutting the springy newer growth. As this is a bit off topic, I'll say no more, but just wanted to clarify.... Best, R.

11th December 2010, 05:10 PM	#8
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Machete, you said Machete ... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0985694/

10th March 2011, 01:09 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	as I've mentioned before in this matter, the introduction of iron-working into the Caribean/Americas was not just by Europeans, but also by those other "Westerners" the Africans who accompanied the Europeans. These people retained considerable of their own customs and practices, and I think this significantly informs the development of the thin-bladed machete, including hook-bladed forms. I've seen antique hook-blade Caribean and N American work swords with features that clearly hark to the fighting mambeles of the Congo region. The thinness often noted in African weapons is a very functional characteristic in fast movement and deep cutting (less friction/wedging)

12th November 2010, 05:03 PM	#10
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	More on lead tempering: It ws used on the backs of knife blades, but a spirit lamp was used for the edge... The Hardeneing and Temering of Steel by Fridolin Reiser page 96 link http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=W...dening&f=false More in Gunsmithing by Roy E Dunlap pages 121 to 122 link: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7...pering&f=false but again although he mentions tempering in a bath of molten lead for small parts, the main procees described is the previous stage of hardening... More on melting points, and salts used in the molten state for tempering at http://www.weights-and-measures.com/xcommetalsalt.html More on tempering of steels at http://www.toolmakers-microscope.com...nd-alloys.html