Montagnard Dha Sources

Ian · 19th June 2005, 04:40 PM

Antonio, but I have been dealing with cross-platform issues between graphics in PowerPoint for the Mac and converting images to reasonably-sized JPEG images.

Here are several examples of swords of Les Montagnards (Fr. "mountain people"), and I have tribal atributions, as best I can determine, for each.

1. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Jarai people who live along the Vietnamese-Lao border:

2. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Rhade people who also live along the Vietnamese-Lao border:

3. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Hmong, a group of Montagnard tribes who now live mainly in Laos, having largely been driven out of their Vietnamese range over the last 150 years:

Notice that the last example has a blade that resembles the "Shan" style, such as commonly seen in the northern areas of Thailand and Cambodia, which are neighbors of Laos. The "Shan" style of blade suggests a western or southern Lao influence.

Examples (1) and (2) above have a different style of blade with a sharply angled, wide tip that is reminiscent of certain types of Vietnamese and Chinese pole arms. Indeed, I believe that some Montagnard dha are modeled after such pole arms, which can probably all be traced to earlier Chinense weapons. It is noteworthy that the tribes to which these swords are attributed have some of their range within modern day Vietnam and some in neighboring Laos and Combodia.

As a generalization, it seems that sword blade shapes alter among the Montagnard groups as one moves west and south away from the main mountainous homeland areas along the Vietnames-Lao border.

There may also be other subtle regional differences: it seems that the ratio of handle to blade length increases as one goes west towards northern Thailand. That may not be surprising, because Thai swords do tend to have longer handles than, say, Burmese dha, especially those employed by the Thai cavalry in the 18th and 19th C.

Also, there is a tendency for the handles on Montagnard swords to be angled upwards, away from the cutting edge, while the blades themselves are straight or slightly curved along the spine. This is a common feature of Cambodian swords, rarely so among Thai or Vietnamese swords.

What I think we can say with some confidence about Montagnard swords are that they have been heavily influenced by styles to the east and north (Vietnam and China) and to the west and south (Thailand and Cambodia). Within the various tribal mountain groups, there has been a diffusion and mixing of styles, with perhaps some regional variations still discernible.

This would make a nice research project for a young scholar -- got anyone that you could recommend, Antonio.

There is a lot of information posted by other members in this thread, and I do want to respond to your pictures and ideas when time permits.

Ian.

Antonio Cejunior · 19th June 2005, 04:55 PM

Greetings Ian,

Yes, I was aware of the Montagnard being from "de la Montagne"

I very much like the first one and the last one. Thank you for posting them.
I am begining to see that all of them have an almost polearm configuration, which makes me wonder why the need for the extra-reach.
Possibly because of the steep terrain I suspect. You know, form and function...

Feel no pressure. I believe Power Point from Mac is compatible with PC.
I'd be happy to host a full article and build the webpage if you like.

As for the young scholar... have you ever thought of locating a Thai student in the University?

Thank you for your great post and pictures.

Ian · 19th June 2005, 04:57 PM

These pictures came from Artzi Yarom's web site and he generously allowed me to use them in the Timonium presentation on Montagnard dha. This is an old sword attributed by Artzi to Laos. It resembles other Montagnard pieces, although the tip of the blade is more upturned than usual. It appears to have a strong Vietnamese/Chinese influence in style.

Antonio Cejunior · 19th June 2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

It resembles other Montagnard pieces, although the tip of the blade is more upturned than usual. It appears to have a strong Vietnamese/Chinese influence in style.

Indeed. The huge curve reminds me of the wide Chinese Guan Yu polearm.

Thanks again

Ian · 19th June 2005, 05:04 PM

The problem with PowerPoint for the Mac is that it uses graphics translators not usually found on a PC (notably QuickTime), so I need to carry my Mac when giving presentations that contain graphics.

I do have a PDF version of the talk which I can share with folks (those graphics work fine) but the file is 20.5 MB in size and I only use a 56K modem at home!

Ian.

Antonio Cejunior · 19th June 2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The problem with PowerPoint for the Mac is that it uses graphics translators not usually found on a PC (notably QuickTime), so I need to carry my Mac when giving presentations that contain graphics.

I do have a PDF version of the talk which I can share with folks (those graphics work fine) but the file is 20.5 MB in size and I only use a 56K modem at home!

Ian.

A CD-Rom works wonders Ian

And I have a Mac and a PC.

Need my full address? I'm right now on my Mac (my wife took possession of the PC for now) . I'll ask you to check your PM in 5 minutes.

Ian · 20th June 2005, 09:52 PM

Ariel: Your example resembles the "Hmong dha" that I posted in that the handle length is greater than the length of the blade, and the tip of the blade is rounded rather than sharply angled.

Mark: The woven wire hilts that you have shown are most likely Burmese work, rather than Thai. A while back, Dan relayed information from his Thai sources that such hilts were always Burmese and not found on Thai swords.

Andrew: Your example has the shorter hilt and angled tip suggesting it is from one of the tribes along the Vietnamese-Lao border.

Mark · 22nd June 2005, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ariel: Your example resembles the "Hmong dha" that I posted in that the handle length is greater than the length of the blade, and the tip of the blade is rounded rather than sharply angled.

Mark: The woven wire hilts that you have shown are most likely Burmese work, rather than Thai. A while back, Dan relayed information from his Thai sources that such hilts were always Burmese and not found on Thai swords.

Andrew: Your example has the shorter hilt and angled tip suggesting it is from one of the tribes along the Vietnamese-Lao border.

Agreed. However, I think I remember seeing the weave on what looked very much like a Thai daab (I have to track it down, so don't hold me to that yet). It might just be a case of migration of the blade and/or craftman and/or customer, however.

ariel · 23rd June 2005, 07:25 PM

Any opinions on the one I posted here (the short, brass-handled one)?

19th June 2005, 04:40 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Sorry for the delay ... Antonio, but I have been dealing with cross-platform issues between graphics in PowerPoint for the Mac and converting images to reasonably-sized JPEG images. Here are several examples of swords of Les Montagnards (Fr. "mountain people"), and I have tribal atributions, as best I can determine, for each. 1. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Jarai people who live along the Vietnamese-Lao border: 2. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Rhade people who also live along the Vietnamese-Lao border: 3. Montagnard dha: This one is from the Hmong, a group of Montagnard tribes who now live mainly in Laos, having largely been driven out of their Vietnamese range over the last 150 years: Notice that the last example has a blade that resembles the "Shan" style, such as commonly seen in the northern areas of Thailand and Cambodia, which are neighbors of Laos. The "Shan" style of blade suggests a western or southern Lao influence. Examples (1) and (2) above have a different style of blade with a sharply angled, wide tip that is reminiscent of certain types of Vietnamese and Chinese pole arms. Indeed, I believe that some Montagnard dha are modeled after such pole arms, which can probably all be traced to earlier Chinense weapons. It is noteworthy that the tribes to which these swords are attributed have some of their range within modern day Vietnam and some in neighboring Laos and Combodia. As a generalization, it seems that sword blade shapes alter among the Montagnard groups as one moves west and south away from the main mountainous homeland areas along the Vietnames-Lao border. There may also be other subtle regional differences: it seems that the ratio of handle to blade length increases as one goes west towards northern Thailand. That may not be surprising, because Thai swords do tend to have longer handles than, say, Burmese dha, especially those employed by the Thai cavalry in the 18th and 19th C. Also, there is a tendency for the handles on Montagnard swords to be angled upwards, away from the cutting edge, while the blades themselves are straight or slightly curved along the spine. This is a common feature of Cambodian swords, rarely so among Thai or Vietnamese swords. What I think we can say with some confidence about Montagnard swords are that they have been heavily influenced by styles to the east and north (Vietnam and China) and to the west and south (Thailand and Cambodia). Within the various tribal mountain groups, there has been a diffusion and mixing of styles, with perhaps some regional variations still discernible. This would make a nice research project for a young scholar -- got anyone that you could recommend, Antonio. There is a lot of information posted by other members in this thread, and I do want to respond to your pictures and ideas when time permits. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 19th June 2005 at 05:15 PM.

19th June 2005, 04:55 PM	#2
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Greetings Ian, Yes, I was aware of the Montagnard being from "de la Montagne" I very much like the first one and the last one. Thank you for posting them. I am begining to see that all of them have an almost polearm configuration, which makes me wonder why the need for the extra-reach. Possibly because of the steep terrain I suspect. You know, form and function... Feel no pressure. I believe Power Point from Mac is compatible with PC. I'd be happy to host a full article and build the webpage if you like. As for the young scholar... have you ever thought of locating a Thai student in the University? Thank you for your great post and pictures. Last edited by Ian; 23rd June 2005 at 10:27 PM.

19th June 2005, 04:57 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Another old Lao dha These pictures came from Artzi Yarom's web site and he generously allowed me to use them in the Timonium presentation on Montagnard dha. This is an old sword attributed by Artzi to Laos. It resembles other Montagnard pieces, although the tip of the blade is more upturned than usual. It appears to have a strong Vietnamese/Chinese influence in style. Attached Images

19th June 2005, 05:04 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Thanks Antonio The problem with PowerPoint for the Mac is that it uses graphics translators not usually found on a PC (notably QuickTime), so I need to carry my Mac when giving presentations that contain graphics. I do have a PDF version of the talk which I can share with folks (those graphics work fine) but the file is 20.5 MB in size and I only use a 56K modem at home! Ian.

20th June 2005, 09:52 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Ariel: Your example resembles the "Hmong dha" that I posted in that the handle length is greater than the length of the blade, and the tip of the blade is rounded rather than sharply angled. Mark: The woven wire hilts that you have shown are most likely Burmese work, rather than Thai. A while back, Dan relayed information from his Thai sources that such hilts were always Burmese and not found on Thai swords. Andrew: Your example has the shorter hilt and angled tip suggesting it is from one of the tribes along the Vietnamese-Lao border.

23rd June 2005, 07:25 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Any opinions on the one I posted here (the short, brass-handled one)?