Hungarian saber 15thC

[Matchlock]

Here you are, Cornelis,

My friend Ottmar thinks this an extremely fine and rare original and characteristic Venetian saber, ca. 1470 - so congrats once more!

Just in case that my fading eyes overlooked it: what is the overall length of the item? It might be a one-and-a-half saber!

Best to Holland from a cold and rainy Bavaria,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jeff,
thanks for the info and nice picture.

Hi Michael,
thanks for the info that it can be venetian.
this saber can be used with one or two hands.
the grip is 14cm
all over length is 98cm
blade is 78cm
pommel 5x5cm
weight is 1130gr

the only similar I could find is in Mueller/koelling/platow and discrubed as Hungarian end of 15thC. another one sold at Sothebys in 2002.

[Samik]

Those are some lovely pieces indeed, thank you very much for posting those pics !

As to the provenance of the original saber(s) I'd say it could be both Hungarian or Venetian (or even Balkan in origin) - Venice had a considerable influence on Hungaro-Balkan arms and amour (the blade however would be after the Turkish fashion of course).. I imagine that such a saber could easily have been carried by either a period Hungarian Hussar, Venetian Stradiot or even a Rumelian (european) Ottoman trooper.. Do note also the slightly canted handle on some pieces as well.. Many of the men serving in those units were often of mixed heritage that is Serb/Magyar (early hussars) , Albanian/Greek (stradiots) to name a few.. During the period in questions these nations were heavily influenced by both North Italian as well as Ottoman Turkish trends. A result of this mating can be imho quite clearly seen in those transitional sabers.

I recently spotted a somewhat similar depiction of a saber in an Altair painting back home in our church (Bardejov, Slovakia , former Upper Hungary) dated to 1480s - depicting a scene with a byzantine emperor Heraclius...

data from imareal:

Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar Kreuzigungsaltar ; Slowakei ; Kreuzerhöhung:03:016-027
Dokumentation: 1480 ; 1490 ; Bardejov ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche St. Ägidius
Anmerkungen: 700x800 ; Bardejov ; Libuse Cidlinska, Goticke kridlove oltare na Slovensku, 1989, S. 30f

overview



Closeups done by myself:




(note the S or almost figure 8 shaped cross-guard, I believe some authors calls this "schiavonesca" style, afaik such curved quilllons were not only restricted to those weapons only)

Collection of XV. century sabres from Budapest National Museum (source: Régi Magyar Fegyverek by Kalmár János):




Some more from B.N.M - courtesy of http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua :

http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm011.jpg

+

http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm012.jpg

(closeup on yelmen)

source: http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...muz/index.html

Cheers,
Samuel

[cornelistromp]

Hi Samuel,

thanks a lot for the valuable information about this type of saber, there is little in Western European books to find.
particularly interesting is the 15th century painting with an identical saber and of course the museum link

thank you for this post, this helps me a lot further

kind regards

[Evgeny_K]

Gents,
What do you think about this beauty?
Unlike the examples above, this one has a straight crossguard (not S-shaped).
Are swords/sabers known with this kind of crossguard?
There is a marking on the tang (hope it will be more visible after cleaning).

[Victrix]

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice. It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice. It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

Hi
Don't you think it could be an example of a transitional sword model with "classical" straight crossguard which will be replaced later with S-shaped crossguard? Or it could be some kind of local feature...