How late 15th to mid 16th century guns were aimed, in historic illustrations

Matchlock · 31st October 2010, 04:32 PM

Scanned from the highly recommendable work by H.W. Koch, Medieval Warfare, London, Bison Books, 1978, ISBN0 86124 008 1, p. 152.

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 06:27 PM

Michael, thank you so much for updating this fantastic thread!
It was wonderful reviewing the artwork and information you have so thoughtfully shared with us constantly, and reminds me how much your contributions mean here.

Also, this topic nicely addresses the question I posed to you in recent talks, why did they need sights on these early smoothbore guns, whose accuracy was typically questionable at best. It is interesting to see the intensity of these combats as reflected in these works.
In response to one of the questions from Fernando, it does seem interesting that so much attention to detail was given, yet license took over in many cases in depiction of the position and detail of locks.

Extremely interesting responses by everyone here also, especially comments on aiming and the use of the forked mounts etc. In my most limited experience with firearms, I once had the opportunity to fire a flintlock musket and can well understand concerns about having these 'explosive dynamics' close to your face. I would suspect that during the intensity and chaos of battle, there were far more incidents with exploding guns than were ever recorded or for that matter even noted in the carnage.

As far as aiming, with combat in those times largely being comprised of pitched battle in melee in huge masses of combative forces, it would not seem that aiming would be necessary with singular firearms. In the actual intensity of battle, I often wonder how much 'psychological' effect would even be recognized as the combatants reach levels of adrenalin driven fear and frenzy and these effects would diminish any such detail. The dense smoke from guns present, noise and chaos would in effect be close to insanity in perspective it would seem, and everything would seem surreal, with the thought of determined pyschological effect being hardly any more noticeable than the rest.

As always, the hardest thing in accurately studying the history of weapons is having to understand the inherent unpleasantries that there were. Just the same, it is an aspect that must be considered on occasion, and these things came to mind. Having said that, I return to the wonderful designs and colorful pageantry of the costume seen in these works, leaving the other aside.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 31st October 2010, 07:59 PM

Thank you so much for all those kind words, Jim,

Yeah, while we never should forget the cruel impact of a gun - or any kind of weapon, be it hammer, sword or halberd - , as students of these items we may leave the practical aspects aside and are allowed just to try and understand, date and assign arms as objects of arts and crafts - and as an objective part of the culture of mankind.

Unlike you, my sword affiliate friend, I have fired original 400 year old matchlock muskets from my collection, as well as replicas, several times and must admit that each time it was a thrilling effect and much impressive as well. I fully agree with you that lots of accidents must have occured on the battlefields of old. This fact most probably was the reason why Jacob de Gheyn published his manual of exercise with muskets, calivers and pikes (Wapenhandelinghe) in 1608 where each single grip and loading and firing action had be done following an exact command.

All the best,
Michael

Andi · 13th November 2012, 02:27 PM

Hello Matchlock

Thank you for all this great and interesting infos on early fire arms.

Do you have some more information on the painting showing a dead corps fireing a matchlock arquebuse (not the one from Clusone) such as artist, title and its actual location.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=36234&stc=1

Thanks in advance!

PClemente · 14th November 2012, 12:50 AM

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the interesting posts and detailed pictures.
I was particularly intrigued by the discussion in regards to the sights on early firearms, and it brought to mind the back-sight on a 16th century wheelock carbine that I obtained years ago. The carbine is 32" long and comprised of an 18.5" barrel, with a sight that sits at the base of the barrel. I believe the carbine is possibly French or German dating to 1580 - 1600. The piece exhibits the wear and tear of long and hard usage, and has undergone some repairs and restoration to the stock. I often wonder what good a sight on such a gun would have provided. See the attached pictures...
Regards,
Paul

fernando · 14th November 2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi

Hello Matchlock

Thank you for all this great and interesting infos on early fire arms.

Do you have some more information on the painting showing a dead corps fireing a matchlock arquebuse (not the one from Clusone) such as artist, title and its actual location.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=36234&stc=1

Thanks in advance!

Can you give us the link to this thread, Andi ?
Matchlock has so much material in this forum that is not easy to locate a specific thread, some times

I remember the picture but ...

Andi · 14th November 2012, 02:20 PM

Holla fernando!

Sorry. The link is actually the url of the image posted by matchlock earlier in this thread. I dont know how to insert an image which has already been upleaded by other users in other posts or threads (just in order not to waste online storage capacity).
I have now uploaded again, please see below.

Spiridonov · 31st October 2010, 08:13 PM

Hallow, Michael! Thank you for sharing this. I have not seen this picture before. In which manuscript it is?

Spiridonov · 31st October 2010, 09:29 PM

it seems that we can see the matchcords which is hanging on the fingers:

Matchlock · 31st October 2010, 10:56 PM

Hello, Alexender,

In Koch's book which I cited in full it sadly just says 'British Library', without mentioning the manuscript. So: sorry.

Honestly, I do not believe that the items you encircled are actual lengths of matchcord. If you look at the sources I posted at the beginning, on top of this thread, you will notice that 15th and early 16th c. matchcords were much thicker than these seem to be.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 1st November 2010, 08:11 AM

Hallo, dear Michael.Thanks for answear. May be You are right, but the image is too arbitrary, imprecise and sketchy. So everything is possible ...

Matchlock · 1st November 2010, 04:34 PM

Absolutely, Alexender!

m

31st October 2010, 04:32 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two very unusual arquebuses in a 1470's manuscript in the British Library Scanned from the highly recommendable work by H.W. Koch, Medieval Warfare, London, Bison Books, 1978, ISBN0 86124 008 1, p. 152. Attached Images

13th November 2012, 02:27 PM	#4
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Hello Matchlock Thank you for all this great and interesting infos on early fire arms. Do you have some more information on the painting showing a dead corps fireing a matchlock arquebuse (not the one from Clusone) such as artist, title and its actual location. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=36234&stc=1 Thanks in advance! Last edited by Andi; 14th November 2012 at 08:24 AM.

14th November 2012, 12:50 AM	#5
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Back-Sight Wheelock Carbine Hi Michael, Thank you for the interesting posts and detailed pictures. I was particularly intrigued by the discussion in regards to the sights on early firearms, and it brought to mind the back-sight on a 16th century wheelock carbine that I obtained years ago. The carbine is 32" long and comprised of an 18.5" barrel, with a sight that sits at the base of the barrel. I believe the carbine is possibly French or German dating to 1580 - 1600. The piece exhibits the wear and tear of long and hard usage, and has undergone some repairs and restoration to the stock. I often wonder what good a sight on such a gun would have provided. See the attached pictures... Regards, Paul Attached Images

14th November 2012, 02:20 PM	#7
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Holla fernando! Sorry. The link is actually the url of the image posted by matchlock earlier in this thread. I dont know how to insert an image which has already been upleaded by other users in other posts or threads (just in order not to waste online storage capacity). I have now uploaded again, please see below. Attached Images

31st October 2010, 09:29 PM	#9
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	it seems that we can see the matchcords which is hanging on the fingers: Attached Images

31st October 2010, 06:27 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Michael, thank you so much for updating this fantastic thread! It was wonderful reviewing the artwork and information you have so thoughtfully shared with us constantly, and reminds me how much your contributions mean here. Also, this topic nicely addresses the question I posed to you in recent talks, why did they need sights on these early smoothbore guns, whose accuracy was typically questionable at best. It is interesting to see the intensity of these combats as reflected in these works. In response to one of the questions from Fernando, it does seem interesting that so much attention to detail was given, yet license took over in many cases in depiction of the position and detail of locks. Extremely interesting responses by everyone here also, especially comments on aiming and the use of the forked mounts etc. In my most limited experience with firearms, I once had the opportunity to fire a flintlock musket and can well understand concerns about having these 'explosive dynamics' close to your face. I would suspect that during the intensity and chaos of battle, there were far more incidents with exploding guns than were ever recorded or for that matter even noted in the carnage. As far as aiming, with combat in those times largely being comprised of pitched battle in melee in huge masses of combative forces, it would not seem that aiming would be necessary with singular firearms. In the actual intensity of battle, I often wonder how much 'psychological' effect would even be recognized as the combatants reach levels of adrenalin driven fear and frenzy and these effects would diminish any such detail. The dense smoke from guns present, noise and chaos would in effect be close to insanity in perspective it would seem, and everything would seem surreal, with the thought of determined pyschological effect being hardly any more noticeable than the rest. As always, the hardest thing in accurately studying the history of weapons is having to understand the inherent unpleasantries that there were. Just the same, it is an aspect that must be considered on occasion, and these things came to mind. Having said that, I return to the wonderful designs and colorful pageantry of the costume seen in these works, leaving the other aside. All the best, Jim

31st October 2010, 07:59 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much for all those kind words, Jim, Yeah, while we never should forget the cruel impact of a gun - or any kind of weapon, be it hammer, sword or halberd - , as students of these items we may leave the practical aspects aside and are allowed just to try and understand, date and assign arms as objects of arts and crafts - and as an objective part of the culture of mankind. Unlike you, my sword affiliate friend, I have fired original 400 year old matchlock muskets from my collection, as well as replicas, several times and must admit that each time it was a thrilling effect and much impressive as well. I fully agree with you that lots of accidents must have occured on the battlefields of old. This fact most probably was the reason why Jacob de Gheyn published his manual of exercise with muskets, calivers and pikes (Wapenhandelinghe) in 1608 where each single grip and loading and firing action had be done following an exact command. All the best, Michael

31st October 2010, 08:13 PM	#8
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Hallow, Michael! Thank you for sharing this. I have not seen this picture before. In which manuscript it is?

31st October 2010, 10:56 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello, Alexender, In Koch's book which I cited in full it sadly just says 'British Library', without mentioning the manuscript. So: sorry. Honestly, I do not believe that the items you encircled are actual lengths of matchcord. If you look at the sources I posted at the beginning, on top of this thread, you will notice that 15th and early 16th c. matchcords were much thicker than these seem to be. Best, Michael

1st November 2010, 08:11 AM	#11
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Hallo, dear Michael.Thanks for answear. May be You are right, but the image is too arbitrary, imprecise and sketchy. So everything is possible ...

1st November 2010, 04:34 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Absolutely, Alexender! m