Mutilated Kaskara on Ebay

TVV · 30th October 2010, 12:54 AM

Jim,

I think Rumpel is right - whoever mutilated this sword was not doing it to imitate a kaskara, but rather to turn a kaskara into a medieval European sword and sell it for a premium. Or of course, it could have been a fantasy larp nerd looking for a fancy prop, but they are usually satsfied with plastic and wooden swords and the modifications here suggest insidious intent to me.

Oh well, thanks for postign Stephen, and I hope one day we get an answer to the origin and meaning of the comet mark.

Regards,
Teodor

stephen wood · 30th October 2010, 01:43 AM

...a very interesting mark - I had the opportunity to examine this kaskara from Anthony North's collection before it went to auction. As well as celestial marks, koranic inscription and a lion and o+ (very faint), there is, under the langet, a small "comet" mark. Unlooked-for and unnoticed.

Lee · 30th October 2010, 11:03 AM

Unfortunately, a lot of kaskaras met this fate over the last 50 years.

I had somehow missed the interpretation of this mark as a comet previously; very interesting!

stephen wood · 30th October 2010, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

Unlooked-for and unnoticed.

...not unnoticed by Anthony North I'm sure...

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 05:17 AM

Hi Teodor,
Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well.
Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan.

I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17.
To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th.

I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen

It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically.

I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 31st October 2010, 12:21 PM

It seems that these are often the victim of either ignorance, wishful thinking or genuine nefariousness.
Kaskaras are one of the most misrepresented weapons I see!
Not from sellers here, but at fairs etc.
Ones with old trade blades seem to often get 'the treatment' or just be misidentified as completely European.
Ones with native made blades of trade blade style are always upgraded to 'ancestral European blade' and modern toss is invariably antique!

Something about the 'Knightly' style of these seem to make dealers think they've got Excaliber!

I'd actually quite like a nice one, but..........

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 07:11 PM

Very well put Gene! It seems to me to parallel the unscrupulous pillaging of archeological sites by hoarders and hawkers. These weapons are often in effect anthropological sites in themselves holding important historical information. How unfortunate that too many dont see them that way.

Giving more thought to the 'enigmatic' symbols seen on these blades.
While I mentioned the 'bee' symbol used in Solingen, the thought of the scorpion device often seen on Italian blades through the 16th century and probably later. Again, while these were typically makers marks, it does seem that the scorpion was perceived in folk religion as an apotropaic.

In Arabian sa'if, the scabbard often has a stylized device at the throat of the scabbard termed the 'aghrab' (=scorpion). This geometrically stylized device, no matter how I look at it, does not resemble an actual scorpion to me, but regardless, this is how it is perceived.
Among the Berber tribes in Kabylia, the well known flyssa has such attention to apotropaic devices in geometric style it is nearly a stereotype.

In a review of the work by Jean Gabus ("Au Sahara II, 1958) it is noted that the author strives to show the manner in which each artisan may interpret the symbolism for his own ends. This work reflects eight field investigations of Mauretanians, Tuareg and Fulani from 1942-1958 by the Musee d'Ethnographie of Nuechatel.

Perhaps the apotropaic explanation as a device to protect from the evil eye might be at the root of the enigmatic marking?
What say you Stephen?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2010, 04:09 PM

RIP

30th October 2010, 01:43 AM	#2
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...a very interesting mark - I had the opportunity to examine this kaskara from Anthony North's collection before it went to auction. As well as celestial marks, koranic inscription and a lion and o+ (very faint), there is, under the langet, a small "comet" mark. Unlooked-for and unnoticed. Attached Images

30th October 2010, 11:03 AM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Sadly, not that uncommon Unfortunately, a lot of kaskaras met this fate over the last 50 years. I had somehow missed the interpretation of this mark as a comet previously; very interesting!

30th October 2010, 12:54 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim, I think Rumpel is right - whoever mutilated this sword was not doing it to imitate a kaskara, but rather to turn a kaskara into a medieval European sword and sell it for a premium. Or of course, it could have been a fantasy larp nerd looking for a fancy prop, but they are usually satsfied with plastic and wooden swords and the modifications here suggest insidious intent to me. Oh well, thanks for postign Stephen, and I hope one day we get an answer to the origin and meaning of the comet mark. Regards, Teodor

31st October 2010, 05:17 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Teodor, Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well. Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan. I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17. To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th. I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically. I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish. All best regards, Jim

31st October 2010, 12:21 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It seems that these are often the victim of either ignorance, wishful thinking or genuine nefariousness. Kaskaras are one of the most misrepresented weapons I see! Not from sellers here, but at fairs etc. Ones with old trade blades seem to often get 'the treatment' or just be misidentified as completely European. Ones with native made blades of trade blade style are always upgraded to 'ancestral European blade' and modern toss is invariably antique! Something about the 'Knightly' style of these seem to make dealers think they've got Excaliber! I'd actually quite like a nice one, but..........

31st October 2010, 07:11 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Very well put Gene! It seems to me to parallel the unscrupulous pillaging of archeological sites by hoarders and hawkers. These weapons are often in effect anthropological sites in themselves holding important historical information. How unfortunate that too many dont see them that way. Giving more thought to the 'enigmatic' symbols seen on these blades. While I mentioned the 'bee' symbol used in Solingen, the thought of the scorpion device often seen on Italian blades through the 16th century and probably later. Again, while these were typically makers marks, it does seem that the scorpion was perceived in folk religion as an apotropaic. In Arabian sa'if, the scabbard often has a stylized device at the throat of the scabbard termed the 'aghrab' (=scorpion). This geometrically stylized device, no matter how I look at it, does not resemble an actual scorpion to me, but regardless, this is how it is perceived. Among the Berber tribes in Kabylia, the well known flyssa has such attention to apotropaic devices in geometric style it is nearly a stereotype. In a review of the work by Jean Gabus ("Au Sahara II, 1958) it is noted that the author strives to show the manner in which each artisan may interpret the symbolism for his own ends. This work reflects eight field investigations of Mauretanians, Tuareg and Fulani from 1942-1958 by the Musee d'Ethnographie of Nuechatel. Perhaps the apotropaic explanation as a device to protect from the evil eye might be at the root of the enigmatic marking? What say you Stephen? All best regards, Jim

2nd November 2010, 04:09 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	RIP