Marks in European sword

fernando · 28th October 2010, 01:06 PM

Hi guys,
First of all, please accept my apologies for having driven you in the wrong direction. The initials, although a bit tricky to decipher, are definitely not WI. Perhaps a WH, in a monogram form. This punction is much closer from the hilt than i was told; could well be a maker's mark. Curiously it is situated on the left side

... is this a common procedure?
The 78 cms (31") blade could well be for Cavalry; the three fullers are the "groove" type, instead of the "depression" seen in British sabres ... if i know what i am talking about

.
The (faded) sun is much larger than i thought.
The grip could (could) be horn.
I hope you Gentlemen may redirect your analizis and offer further coments on this sword ... namely on the markings riddle.

.

Dmitry · 28th October 2010, 02:32 PM

My $0.02
Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

fernando · 28th October 2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

My $0.02
Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

Thank you.
That also came to my mind but, unfortunately, i can't check it; there isn't much written/pictured material on Portuguese weapons.
The blade will not be national, anyhow; we don't use the letter "W".

Norman McCormick · 28th October 2010, 05:50 PM

Hi,
Could be HM?
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 28th October 2010, 06:00 PM

Hi McNorman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Could be HM?
Regards,
Norman.

I wouldn't think so. Firstly due to its direction in relation to the hilt and secondly the font style would look a bit awckward.

Dmitry · 28th October 2010, 06:30 PM

The blade conforms to the Portuguese 1806 pattern sabers, and is probably English-made, which is not surprising, considering the anorexic state of the Portuguese manufacturing at that time, and the British friendship [some would say domination]. I have seen this mark on the tangs of the English blades exported to the US in the first quarter of 1800s. The hilt is in the British 1821 style.

Ron Anderson · 28th October 2010, 11:14 PM

Hi

Yes, I agree - this sword of English origin, certainly the hilt. I have seen quite a few Portugese 1821 pattern swords. These it seems were imported from England. Usually they have the standard English blade you find in the 1821 pattern cavalry sword too.

I would guess this earlier blade was re-hilted after 1821.

Norman McCormick · 29th October 2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi McNorman

I wouldn't think so. Firstly due to its direction in relation to the hilt and secondly the font style would look a bit awckward.

Hi Fernando,
I would probably think you're correct 'hoots mon the noo'.

Photo is the basket on an Osborn example of the 1821 L.C. for comparison.

Hi Ron,
The 1821 L.C. Troopers sabre had a fullered spearpoint blade before 1845.

Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2010, 06:01 PM

Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted.

Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th.

Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances.
For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte.
These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars".
All the best,
Jim

28th October 2010, 01:06 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi guys, First of all, please accept my apologies for having driven you in the wrong direction. The initials, although a bit tricky to decipher, are definitely not WI. Perhaps a WH, in a monogram form. This punction is much closer from the hilt than i was told; could well be a maker's mark. Curiously it is situated on the left side ... is this a common procedure? The 78 cms (31") blade could well be for Cavalry; the three fullers are the "groove" type, instead of the "depression" seen in British sabres ... if i know what i am talking about . The (faded) sun is much larger than i thought. The grip could (could) be horn. I hope you Gentlemen may redirect your analizis and offer further coments on this sword ... namely on the markings riddle. . Attached Images

29th October 2010, 06:01 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,592	Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted. Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th. Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances. For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte. These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars". All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th October 2010 at 06:39 PM. Reason: add detail

28th October 2010, 02:32 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My $0.02 Portugal, 1820s onward. Blade could be earlier, ca.1805.

28th October 2010, 05:50 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,644	Hi, Could be HM? Regards, Norman.

28th October 2010, 06:30 PM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The blade conforms to the Portuguese 1806 pattern sabers, and is probably English-made, which is not surprising, considering the anorexic state of the Portuguese manufacturing at that time, and the British friendship [some would say domination]. I have seen this mark on the tangs of the English blades exported to the US in the first quarter of 1800s. The hilt is in the British 1821 style.

28th October 2010, 11:14 PM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Yes, I agree - this sword of English origin, certainly the hilt. I have seen quite a few Portugese 1821 pattern swords. These it seems were imported from England. Usually they have the standard English blade you find in the 1821 pattern cavalry sword too. I would guess this earlier blade was re-hilted after 1821.