Silver inlayed 19thC Mexican Spur with Stars/Stripes?

laEspadaAncha · 27th October 2010, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

Hmmm...

Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

Gonzalo G · 28th October 2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hmmm...

Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

Thank you for conffirming my "subjective" statements. Of course, "cowboying" has a spanish, and latter a ver mexican origins on this geographical strip (there were not cattle, horses or spurs in America before the spanish), from the Gul of México to the Pacific, but I was not sure if I should include California. Now I will. And cowboy tradition has a lot to do with the previous posts and with the subject of spurs, since it permits to identify stylistic origins, as it is in the case of the Texan saddle, spurs and hats. Naturally, Mexico and the USA always had a very strong intercultural influence, and this is not a shame.

There were not "spanish" in California when it passed to the USA in the mid 19th century, since Meico got its independence since 1821 and all the spaniards were expelled from the country, though in the USA to this day they call mexicans as "hipanic" and this creates conffussion about national identities.

On other side, the size and styling of those rowels is NOT privative from South America, and in fact were very comon in south of Mexico as they have the same spanish origin. Anybody can check it, as there is abundant iconography of Chinacos using that kind of spurs. It is true that there are a great deal of variations among them through the geographical space and time span, but those spurs were very common at the end of the 18th century, beginning of the19th century, and in the south Mexico there were used to the times of the French invasion.

Regards

Gonzalo

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2010, 01:00 AM

Thank you very much for the kind words Gene, I have always been fascinated by the history of Spain, and in particular the colonial history in the Americas.
Gonzalo, it is great to see you here! its been a while and good to see you posting.

I realize that some of these discussions can get a bit sensitive when dealing with a lot of this history, as there is of course a long history of conflicts and unfortunately much of this leads to some understandably empassioned response. I appreciate you guys keeping things on track and avoiding the kinds of interaction that can easily result. It is often hard to focus on the history without being distracted by perspectives politically or nationally charged.

Gonzalo, I have often told you how much I have always admired Mexico as well as its colorful history, and I hope my descriptions have illustrated that. Chris, I also have enjoyed talks with you and talked about my deep interest in the Californio heritage as well as your proud and intriguing lineage. As I have mentioned, I grew up in Southern California, and it was difficult not to be entirely aware of the magnificent presence of the Spanish and Mexican American heritage, tradition and culture. I could not resist my interest in Spanish colonial and the Mexican weapons that followed, finding complete interest in the history in entirety, from the time of the conquistadors into the history of the southwest and the cowboy traditions.

Again, its good to see you again, and thank you for as always, the great information from Mexico!!!

Thanks very much guys!

All the best,
Jim

Gonzalo G · 28th October 2010, 01:14 AM

Jim, thank you for your kind words. I agree with you.

A subject I forgot to mention: it is not relevant the fact that argentinians also have silver, but if they used the same techniques and stylistic motives to make their spurs. That would be interesting to establish. And please do not try to compare the ACTUAL production of Amozoc spurs, since today the models had suffered a great change, as natural. It is necessary to look for the older models.
Regards

Gonzalo

laEspadaAncha · 28th October 2010, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

There were not "spanish" in California when it passed to the USA in the mid 19th century, since Meico got its independence since 1821 and all the spaniards were expelled from the country, though in the USA to this day they call mexicans as "hipanic" and this creates conffussion about national identities.

Gonzalo,

I referenced California's Spanish heritage for the sole purpose of clarifying that vaqueros existed here on the California frontier long before Mexico existed as a political entity. And thus, in truth, the vaqueros - at least those in California, where there were nearly a half-million heads of cattle - were of Spanish heritage.

While Mexican independence brought with it to California some welcome reforms, it also brought many unfortunate changes. However, to state that "Spaniards were expelled" is patently incorrect. There was no such expulsion, at least not here. The Californios who resided here under the Spanish standard continued to do so (and still do to this day - you are conversing with one). They welcomed the opportunity to trade with foreign merchants (though they already did so under Spanish rule, such trade was "officially" illicit).

But make no mistake about it - they never really considered themselves "Mexicans," a politically-born national identity from a seat of power thousands of kilometers away that meant nothing here on the California frontier. They considered themselves Californios. After Mexico had sent governors to rule, the Californios wholeheartedly rejected this imposed rule and revolted, and a Californio governor - Pio Pico - was once again elected to rule the state. When Andres Pico led his ranchero-born band of caballeros and vaqueros against the numerically superior U.S. 1st Dragoons in the Battle of San Pasqual in 1846 (not a dozen kilometers from where I sit and type this), they rode not as Mexicans, but as Californios. These families were second-generation Californios when the Mexican standard was raised in Monterey - while the flag may have changed, they remained the same. My great-great-great grandmother, Maria Encarnacion Pico - first cousin to Pio and Andres - was born here as a Spaniard. Her son, my great-great grandfather, died as an American. Yet through their two generations, and the generations that preceded them, they were always Californios.

I don't mean to be a stickler for such things, but one of my worst pet peeves is hearing a resident or first-generation immigrant of Mexican heritage refer to California as "occupied California" (not that you did this, as you clearly did not). Nothing could be further form the truth... California was born of Spain and flew under the Spanish standard for 56 years. And it is over the past 160 years as a proud member of the Union that we have flourished to become a global economic powerhouse. The 24 years in between during which the Mexican flag flew over the state capital were in truth inconsequential aside from the commerce-based reforms that would have taken place regardless less than a quarter-century later.

Mexico may be a proud part of our heritage and a small part of our history, but it is not part of our national identity.

Anyway, please do not take exception to any of this. I, along with thousands of others like me, are proud of our centuries-old California heritage, just as you are rightfully proud of your own.

Regarding the spurs, while there very well may be a remarkable difference between contemporary and period-original spurs from Amozoc, I can find no references to older spurs from Amozoc...

I would be interested to see any references to such spurs for my own benefit if you have any links or published references you might share - I routinely encounter antique spurs at shows, auctions, and estate sales, and would be grateful for the opportunity to broaden my knowledge base. In the meantime, in the absence of such references, I still think the styling appears to be South American.

And lastly, Jim, you sir are indeed the consummate diplomat.

Thank you for your willingness to proactively mitigate the risk of misunderstanding by illustrating the commonalities we share even when our opinions differ. In the end, I guess it is the espada ancha that binds us...

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2010, 06:02 PM

Thank you Gonzalo! Very good point on the inevitable changes that would take place through the profound diffusion of influences that not only that permeated and were dispersed through the vast colonial spheres of Spain, but later of Mexico as it became an independant Republic.

Just as with all features of material culture including weapons, the original styles would have carried contemporary fashion and presence, while the nuances of other influences would imbue them progressively as time went on.
I think one of our greatest challenges in studying ethnographic weapons is to try to learn from the weapons themselves as they reveal these to us and help us see the actual history they have seen. Our task is virtually always to try to establish date and period so we can see these changes that often occur so subtly and sometimes vary by region as well.

Chris, thank you so much for those kind words, and I have been compelled to write on this as well, as California is as close as I have to having a true heritage of my own. I have expressed this before as I have discussed my deep passion for these collective facets of the distinct culture in the place where I spent my formitive years. You are indeed a Californio, and of proud Spanish descent, and Gonzalo is an extremely proud Mexican National. I hope those interpretations are expressed correctly, as I address them with my great admiration.
In truth, I wish I had such distinct and proud lineage, and though I was not born in California, I think of myself as Californian. Many of my brothers and sisters in law and my nieces and nephews are of Mexican American heritage, with profound ancestry from Mexico, and I have always been extremely proud of that fact as well, as to me it adds to the deep cultural texture that makes up our very multicultural family.

You have extremely well pointed out the nature of the progression of these cultures in the frontier context. When Mexico gained its independence in 1821, there was indeed no expulsion of Spaniards, nor otherwise dramatic change of any kind externally, the only thing that changed was the shift in political power. It was entirely a frontier culture in which there were various degrees of heritage, whether Peninsular or Mestizo as well as Native American ancestries. California had always considered itself a separate entity from Spain or Mexico, just as you have noted.

The history of Spain, the Spanish Southwest, Mexico and California are all rich parts of American history itself, and in my opinion have typically never received the attention they deserve in the studies of our history. Perhaps this is because there is too much potential for difficulties because of the very obvious volatility involved in perceptions of so many events and situations.
My best hope is for our learning and understanding of these important histories from an entirely objective point of view, and that eventually we can establish a clear and well presented record of all aspects of them.

I believe that one avenue of accomplishing such understanding is through the study of these important weapons and all forms of armor and accoutrements from these frontiers. In that, I hope we can continue the focus on the study of these beautiful spurs and bring in other examples of the weapons as well.

Yes, the espada ancha, and the fascination in all of these wonderfully historical weapons does bring us all together!

All the very best,
Jim

Atlantia · 28th October 2010, 06:14 PM

These are the ones I've found online that are the closest to my single spur

They are described:

MEXICAN SPURS CIRCA 1880'S

Very heavy Iron spurs decorated with silver in the typical Mexican fashion of the period. Very large (3 1/2" dia.)rowels and the old leather straps are still all intact. Show lots of use but still in fine condition. Great decorator.

28th October 2010, 01:00 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you very much for the kind words Gene, I have always been fascinated by the history of Spain, and in particular the colonial history in the Americas. Gonzalo, it is great to see you here! its been a while and good to see you posting. I realize that some of these discussions can get a bit sensitive when dealing with a lot of this history, as there is of course a long history of conflicts and unfortunately much of this leads to some understandably empassioned response. I appreciate you guys keeping things on track and avoiding the kinds of interaction that can easily result. It is often hard to focus on the history without being distracted by perspectives politically or nationally charged. Gonzalo, I have often told you how much I have always admired Mexico as well as its colorful history, and I hope my descriptions have illustrated that. Chris, I also have enjoyed talks with you and talked about my deep interest in the Californio heritage as well as your proud and intriguing lineage. As I have mentioned, I grew up in Southern California, and it was difficult not to be entirely aware of the magnificent presence of the Spanish and Mexican American heritage, tradition and culture. I could not resist my interest in Spanish colonial and the Mexican weapons that followed, finding complete interest in the history in entirety, from the time of the conquistadors into the history of the southwest and the cowboy traditions. Again, its good to see you again, and thank you for as always, the great information from Mexico!!! Thanks very much guys! All the best, Jim

28th October 2010, 01:14 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Jim, thank you for your kind words. I agree with you. A subject I forgot to mention: it is not relevant the fact that argentinians also have silver, but if they used the same techniques and stylistic motives to make their spurs. That would be interesting to establish. And please do not try to compare the ACTUAL production of Amozoc spurs, since today the models had suffered a great change, as natural. It is necessary to look for the older models. Regards Gonzalo

28th October 2010, 06:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Gonzalo! Very good point on the inevitable changes that would take place through the profound diffusion of influences that not only that permeated and were dispersed through the vast colonial spheres of Spain, but later of Mexico as it became an independant Republic. Just as with all features of material culture including weapons, the original styles would have carried contemporary fashion and presence, while the nuances of other influences would imbue them progressively as time went on. I think one of our greatest challenges in studying ethnographic weapons is to try to learn from the weapons themselves as they reveal these to us and help us see the actual history they have seen. Our task is virtually always to try to establish date and period so we can see these changes that often occur so subtly and sometimes vary by region as well. Chris, thank you so much for those kind words, and I have been compelled to write on this as well, as California is as close as I have to having a true heritage of my own. I have expressed this before as I have discussed my deep passion for these collective facets of the distinct culture in the place where I spent my formitive years. You are indeed a Californio, and of proud Spanish descent, and Gonzalo is an extremely proud Mexican National. I hope those interpretations are expressed correctly, as I address them with my great admiration. In truth, I wish I had such distinct and proud lineage, and though I was not born in California, I think of myself as Californian. Many of my brothers and sisters in law and my nieces and nephews are of Mexican American heritage, with profound ancestry from Mexico, and I have always been extremely proud of that fact as well, as to me it adds to the deep cultural texture that makes up our very multicultural family. You have extremely well pointed out the nature of the progression of these cultures in the frontier context. When Mexico gained its independence in 1821, there was indeed no expulsion of Spaniards, nor otherwise dramatic change of any kind externally, the only thing that changed was the shift in political power. It was entirely a frontier culture in which there were various degrees of heritage, whether Peninsular or Mestizo as well as Native American ancestries. California had always considered itself a separate entity from Spain or Mexico, just as you have noted. The history of Spain, the Spanish Southwest, Mexico and California are all rich parts of American history itself, and in my opinion have typically never received the attention they deserve in the studies of our history. Perhaps this is because there is too much potential for difficulties because of the very obvious volatility involved in perceptions of so many events and situations. My best hope is for our learning and understanding of these important histories from an entirely objective point of view, and that eventually we can establish a clear and well presented record of all aspects of them. I believe that one avenue of accomplishing such understanding is through the study of these important weapons and all forms of armor and accoutrements from these frontiers. In that, I hope we can continue the focus on the study of these beautiful spurs and bring in other examples of the weapons as well. Yes, the espada ancha, and the fascination in all of these wonderfully historical weapons does bring us all together! All the very best, Jim

28th October 2010, 06:14 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	These are the ones I've found online that are the closest to my single spur They are described: MEXICAN SPURS CIRCA 1880'S Very heavy Iron spurs decorated with silver in the typical Mexican fashion of the period. Very large (3 1/2" dia.)rowels and the old leather straps are still all intact. Show lots of use but still in fine condition. Great decorator.