Templar Sword?

mrwizard · 19th October 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

Yes, but they are not that different and maybe
there were variations.
Below is a picture of Hermann von Salza, grandmaster of the order 1210-1239. Of course this picture is not contemporay but from the 17th century.
At the 13th century the "official" cross looked somewhat like the second picture taken from the codex manesse.

Matchlock · 19th October 2010, 07:53 PM

Thank you, Mrwizard,

For posting these.

Though owning a facsimile copy, I seemingly forgot about the illustrations in the world famous Manesse-Liederhandschrift.

Would you call this a Tatzen- or a Kruckenkreuz (or just a classic Romanic cross)?

Medieval Ages rule!

Best,
Michael

Norman McCormick · 19th October 2010, 08:34 PM

Hi,
I think this sword falls into the sphere of the Type XI/XIa Oakeshott classification. The blade is probably a little short for XI but degradation can often be responsible for the foreshortening of older blades. The pommel to my mind is more akin to the Brasil nut form than the disc type. I would like to think it was a little earlier than 1300 but with the usual caveat that styles were used and made over a long period of time. The cross on the hilt to my mind doesn't necessarily suggest Templar or even Crusader although it may indeed have belonged to either or. Life in Europe at this time in history was inexorably entwined with the Church and its rhetoric so to put a 'Cross' on a sword to imbue one with that little bit extra 'protection' seems perfectly normal. Regardless of anything it is a really nice piece, the sin of 'envy' has reared its ugly head, and I look forward to the posts to come.
Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 19th October 2010, 08:45 PM

Completely agreed on my my side, Norman,

And thank you so much for the input,

Best,
Michael

19th October 2010, 07:53 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Mrwizard, For posting these. Though owning a facsimile copy, I seemingly forgot about the illustrations in the world famous Manesse-Liederhandschrift. Would you call this a Tatzen- or a Kruckenkreuz (or just a classic Romanic cross)? Medieval Ages rule! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 19th October 2010 at 08:15 PM.

19th October 2010, 08:34 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, I think this sword falls into the sphere of the Type XI/XIa Oakeshott classification. The blade is probably a little short for XI but degradation can often be responsible for the foreshortening of older blades. The pommel to my mind is more akin to the Brasil nut form than the disc type. I would like to think it was a little earlier than 1300 but with the usual caveat that styles were used and made over a long period of time. The cross on the hilt to my mind doesn't necessarily suggest Templar or even Crusader although it may indeed have belonged to either or. Life in Europe at this time in history was inexorably entwined with the Church and its rhetoric so to put a 'Cross' on a sword to imbue one with that little bit extra 'protection' seems perfectly normal. Regardless of anything it is a really nice piece, the sin of 'envy' has reared its ugly head, and I look forward to the posts to come. Regards, Norman.

19th October 2010, 08:45 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Completely agreed on my my side, Norman, And thank you so much for the input, Best, Michael