Weighing in...collecting from other cultures...

laEspadaAncha · 12th October 2010, 08:35 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

I have voiced my opinion on this before, and am happy to share it again.

The need to repatriate objects of cultural importance to their "homeland" is a relatively recent invention, spurned by the push for nationalism and nationalist retentionism by political entities. Why does a Roman antiquity found in Tunisia belong to Italy? Not only was there no nation-state of Italy in existence 2,000 years ago, but is that object not a part of the Tunisian cultural identity? The same can be said of edged weapons from the modern day incarnations of the Philippines or Indonesia, which through trade and migration invariably found their way from island to island, long before these current national identities ever existed.

Furthermore, there are considerations regarding how an item came into the possession of someone halfway around the world from its culture of origin. This aspect of the discussion came to light regarding several Moro weapons I am in possession of that formerly belonged to a Brigadier General who earlier in his career played an important role in the Moro Insurrection - both as a warrior and a diplomat, even at one time serving as an analog to the "best man" at a wedding between one datu and the daughter of another.

This recent "nationalist retentionist" push limits access to objects that are as much a tribute to makind's culture as they are to that of any contemporary political identity. This, in turn, limits the opportunity to learn more about the incredible journey we as a race have all taken to this point, a tale more aptly told to much wider audiences by regional encyclopedic museums. I don't know when I will make it to Cairo. But the San Diego Museum of Man has an impressive permanent ancient Egypt exhibit that has educated countless individuals like myself who may otherwise never have the chance to visit these artifacts if they were to be found only in Africa.

Lastly, with regards to the value of private collections, what you see in a museum gallery represents an insignificantly small percentage of a museum's collection, the rest of which remains stored underneath in the vaults, far from the view of the public's eye. It is us, the community of private collectors, who stoke the fire of interest, and (albeit on a much smaller scale) provide what an object stored in the far corner of a museum vault cannot - an opportunity to enlighten someone about a culture that represents a small part of the tapestry of mankind and the journey we have all taken together.

fearn · 12th October 2010, 03:42 PM

I'd also add in the CITES argument to this mix (link to CITES thread).

This is an added layer of complexity. Many weapons have ivory, tiger parts, turtle shell, rhino horn and other material from endangered species. Unless you have a provenanced item that pre-dates the CITES ban on that species, you can't move that item out of its homeland. Antiques are exempt from the ban (within the limits of the link above, and they aren't small).

So there is an irony here. When something becomes valuable as an antique, it may also be more able to travel beyond its homeland.

Personally, I'd say that if you're worried about this, you better be worrying about properly curating your collection with the best available techniques. That way, your collections will live on after you pass, and if the descendants of the original owners want them back, they will still be around to go back.

Best,

F

Nathaniel · 13th October 2010, 12:42 AM

Thank you to all who have contributed you thoughts and experiences so far: Niel, Freebooter, Fern, Vandoo, KuKulzA28, laEspadaAncha, Lew, imas560 & kahnjar1. I think you all have brought up very good points.

Another lament I hear as well as that foreign interest in antiquities also drives up the price out of reach of locals....

or similar that the average person from Country A has to work month or longer to buy the same plane ticket that person from Country B earns in a week.

KuKulzA28 · 13th October 2010, 01:22 AM

You're welcome, and thanks Nathaniel for bringing this up... definitely a very interesting subject. Considering the larger picture and the reasons why and ethical concerns regarding this antique weapon collecting hobby - good thing to discuss. I was actually thinking about this myself at one point a few weeks back... However I myself don't usually own antiques, I would much rather enjoy them and then pass them along to folks who can take much better care of them - like you guys! They can be quite fascinating though...

Nathaniel · 13th October 2010, 01:25 AM

Here is another interesting case like the Elgin Marbles...but of SEA nature
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/17/us...rt-museum.html

The debate was in heat in 1988 between Thai protesters & US museum supporters regarding a temple lintel from an Khmer temple of Phnom Rung in Buri Ram province along the Thai and Cambodian border that was brought to the USA in 1966 and donated later to Art Institute of Chicago.

One of the most popular Thai bands in modern history, Carabao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_(band)

wrote a song regarding the debate for which the song chorus translates as "Take back Michael Jackson, give us back the Phra Narai!"

Whoa...pretty song lyrics, huh? Yet, I'm not sure if it was meant in humor I have trouble with not laughing...sorry...maybe this would have been more humorous if Micheal were still alive?

Anyways, for your viewing pleasure here is the Carabao music video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4vgUfDCxQ

It is quite interesting to watch...US military choppers in the intro...some Thai moon walking...check it out.

On a side note, the lead singer of Carabao is also the one who the Thai energy drink Carabao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_Dang

(aka Carabao Dang....Carabao = Water Buffalo + Dang = Red....ie Red for the color of the drink...it similar to the more well known Thai energy drink: Red Bull, though no relation)

Nathaniel · 14th October 2010, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Here is another interesting case like the Elgin Marbles...but of SEA nature
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/17/us...rt-museum.html

The debate was in heat in 1988 between Thai protesters & US museum supporters regarding a temple lintel from an Khmer temple of Phnom Rung in Buri Ram province along the Thai and Cambodian border that was brought to the USA in 1966 and donated later to Art Institute of Chicago.

One of the most popular Thai bands in modern history, Carabao

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_(band)

wrote a song regarding the debate for which the song chorus translates as "Take back Michael Jackson, give us back the Phra Narai!"

Whoa...pretty song lyrics, huh? Yet, I'm not sure if it was meant in humor I have trouble with not laughing...sorry...maybe this would have been more humorous if Micheal were still alive?

Anyways, for your viewing pleasure here is the Carabao music video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4vgUfDCxQ

It is quite interesting to watch...US military choppers in the intro...some Thai moon walking...check it out.

On a side note, the lead singer of Carabao is also the one who the Thai energy drink Carabao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_Dang

(aka Carabao Dang....Carabao = Water Buffalo + Dang = Red....ie Red for the color of the drink...it similar to the more well known Thai energy drink: Red Bull, though no relation)

I added the above directly because this came up in a native forum topic about 'competing with foreign collectors'...brining up this debate & music video from 1988. I think it's ironic that Michael Jackson to be the subject of the song as Michael was the one who wrote the song: "Black or White"...and lyrics: "You can be my brother, it don't matter if your black or white!"

ThePepperSkull · 14th October 2010, 05:42 PM

being on both ends of the spectrum (being a student of various philippine and s.e.a cultures and their appropriate accoutrement, AND being of partly visayan/sulu malay ethnic origin), what I can weigh into this conversation that no one else has is reasoning behind why there are two opposing opinions.

I believe that these differing opinions stem from a different viewpoint, mostly. The funny thing is, I can see merit in both viewpoints, but believe they are both not completely or adequately informed.

Firstly, what we do here (collecting various ethnographic artifacts), from our point of view, comes out of respect for these cultures and demonstrates a keen interest on learning more about them. there's nothing at all nefarious in that. Our goal is knowledge and our methods imply respect. If we did not hold onto these pieces of history, they would be lost on someone who did not appreciate their cultural or historical significance, or maybe worse; they may be taken care of poorly and yet another artifacts will be lost to the ravages of time

However, from the other standpoint, many believe that because there are so many pieces displayed in foreign lands or even in personal collections that it is an implied disrespect to the culture. To have something ripped away from your land during war only to be displayed as a trophy, a symbol of conquest rather than pride. Why not repatriate it to an appropriate museum in its homeland? Why hoard these material things? Why accumulate and accumulate and accumulate so ravenously?

Of course, both of these arguments are very one-domensional and therein lay the problem. A lack of understanding where one or the other comes from can lead to a somewhat skewed and unrealistic perception.

That is why I really appreciate this discussion. We can definitely expand our ways of thinking to include both viewpoints rather than exclude one, and in doing so we can work to understand one another's viewpoints more clearly -- and maybe even change these viewpoints for the better. After all, isn't that level of understanding and intercultural knowledge the essence of what we're all here for? I think so. And for this I am thankful for this discussion, Nathaniel. Great thread.

KuKulzA28 · 14th October 2010, 06:22 PM

Great points Pepperskull.... lack of understanding is the root of many conflicts...
Like they say any good relationship needs good communication!

Nathaniel · 14th October 2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

being on both ends of the spectrum (being a student of various philippine and s.e.a cultures and their appropriate accoutrement, AND being of partly visayan/sulu malay ethnic origin), what I can weigh into this conversation that no one else has is reasoning behind why there are two opposing opinions.

I believe that these differing opinions stem from a different viewpoint, mostly. The funny thing is, I can see merit in both viewpoints, but believe they are both not completely or adequately informed.

Firstly, what we do here (collecting various ethnographic artifacts), from our point of view, comes out of respect for these cultures and demonstrates a keen interest on learning more about them. there's nothing at all nefarious in that. Our goal is knowledge and our methods imply respect. If we did not hold onto these pieces of history, they would be lost on someone who did not appreciate their cultural or historical significance, or maybe worse; they may be taken care of poorly and yet another artifacts will be lost to the ravages of time

However, from the other standpoint, many believe that because there are so many pieces displayed in foreign lands or even in personal collections that it is an implied disrespect to the culture. To have something ripped away from your land during war only to be displayed as a trophy, a symbol of conquest rather than pride. Why not repatriate it to an appropriate museum in its homeland? Why hoard these material things? Why accumulate and accumulate and accumulate so ravenously?

Of course, both of these arguments are very one-domensional and therein lay the problem. A lack of understanding where one or the other comes from can lead to a somewhat skewed and unrealistic perception.

That is why I really appreciate this discussion. We can definitely expand our ways of thinking to include both viewpoints rather than exclude one, and in doing so we can work to understand one another's viewpoints more clearly -- and maybe even change these viewpoints for the better. After all, isn't that level of understanding and intercultural knowledge the essence of what we're all here for? I think so. And for this I am thankful for this discussion, Nathaniel. Great thread.

Peppered Skull,

Thank you very much for bring up such good points on the local/native perspective, this is exactly as I wanted, because I know by the very nature of this forum purpose it maybe bias...and the issues posed can easily make people uncomfortable or raise to defense, but that is the very reason why I felt it was important to bring up this topic. I know it will not necessarily change things...or believe that people should send back their precious pieces to their country of origin, but believe it is a good open conversation to have so that perhaps both sides can understand each other better...this was my purpose...this is my goal. To hopefully disarm the situation even if just a little.

13th October 2010, 01:25 AM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Here is another interesting case like the Elgin Marbles...but of SEA nature http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/17/us...rt-museum.html The debate was in heat in 1988 between Thai protesters & US museum supporters regarding a temple lintel from an Khmer temple of Phnom Rung in Buri Ram province along the Thai and Cambodian border that was brought to the USA in 1966 and donated later to Art Institute of Chicago. One of the most popular Thai bands in modern history, Carabao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_(band) wrote a song regarding the debate for which the song chorus translates as "Take back Michael Jackson, give us back the Phra Narai!" Whoa...pretty song lyrics, huh? Yet, I'm not sure if it was meant in humor I have trouble with not laughing...sorry...maybe this would have been more humorous if Micheal were still alive? Anyways, for your viewing pleasure here is the Carabao music video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4vgUfDCxQ It is quite interesting to watch...US military choppers in the intro...some Thai moon walking...check it out. On a side note, the lead singer of Carabao is also the one who the Thai energy drink Carabao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabao_Dang (aka Carabao Dang....Carabao = Water Buffalo + Dang = Red....ie Red for the color of the drink...it similar to the more well known Thai energy drink: Red Bull, though no relation) Last edited by Nathaniel; 13th October 2010 at 02:00 PM.

12th October 2010, 08:35 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, I have voiced my opinion on this before, and am happy to share it again. The need to repatriate objects of cultural importance to their "homeland" is a relatively recent invention, spurned by the push for nationalism and nationalist retentionism by political entities. Why does a Roman antiquity found in Tunisia belong to Italy? Not only was there no nation-state of Italy in existence 2,000 years ago, but is that object not a part of the Tunisian cultural identity? The same can be said of edged weapons from the modern day incarnations of the Philippines or Indonesia, which through trade and migration invariably found their way from island to island, long before these current national identities ever existed. Furthermore, there are considerations regarding how an item came into the possession of someone halfway around the world from its culture of origin. This aspect of the discussion came to light regarding several Moro weapons I am in possession of that formerly belonged to a Brigadier General who earlier in his career played an important role in the Moro Insurrection - both as a warrior and a diplomat, even at one time serving as an analog to the "best man" at a wedding between one datu and the daughter of another. This recent "nationalist retentionist" push limits access to objects that are as much a tribute to makind's culture as they are to that of any contemporary political identity. This, in turn, limits the opportunity to learn more about the incredible journey we as a race have all taken to this point, a tale more aptly told to much wider audiences by regional encyclopedic museums. I don't know when I will make it to Cairo. But the San Diego Museum of Man has an impressive permanent ancient Egypt exhibit that has educated countless individuals like myself who may otherwise never have the chance to visit these artifacts if they were to be found only in Africa. Lastly, with regards to the value of private collections, what you see in a museum gallery represents an insignificantly small percentage of a museum's collection, the rest of which remains stored underneath in the vaults, far from the view of the public's eye. It is us, the community of private collectors, who stoke the fire of interest, and (albeit on a much smaller scale) provide what an object stored in the far corner of a museum vault cannot - an opportunity to enlighten someone about a culture that represents a small part of the tapestry of mankind and the journey we have all taken together.

12th October 2010, 03:42 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd also add in the CITES argument to this mix (link to CITES thread). This is an added layer of complexity. Many weapons have ivory, tiger parts, turtle shell, rhino horn and other material from endangered species. Unless you have a provenanced item that pre-dates the CITES ban on that species, you can't move that item out of its homeland. Antiques are exempt from the ban (within the limits of the link above, and they aren't small). So there is an irony here. When something becomes valuable as an antique, it may also be more able to travel beyond its homeland. Personally, I'd say that if you're worried about this, you better be worrying about properly curating your collection with the best available techniques. That way, your collections will live on after you pass, and if the descendants of the original owners want them back, they will still be around to go back. Best, F

13th October 2010, 12:42 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thank you to all who have contributed you thoughts and experiences so far: Niel, Freebooter, Fern, Vandoo, KuKulzA28, laEspadaAncha, Lew, imas560 & kahnjar1. I think you all have brought up very good points. Another lament I hear as well as that foreign interest in antiquities also drives up the price out of reach of locals.... or similar that the average person from Country A has to work month or longer to buy the same plane ticket that person from Country B earns in a week.

13th October 2010, 01:22 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	You're welcome, and thanks Nathaniel for bringing this up... definitely a very interesting subject. Considering the larger picture and the reasons why and ethical concerns regarding this antique weapon collecting hobby - good thing to discuss. I was actually thinking about this myself at one point a few weeks back... However I myself don't usually own antiques, I would much rather enjoy them and then pass them along to folks who can take much better care of them - like you guys! They can be quite fascinating though...

14th October 2010, 05:42 PM	#7
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	being on both ends of the spectrum (being a student of various philippine and s.e.a cultures and their appropriate accoutrement, AND being of partly visayan/sulu malay ethnic origin), what I can weigh into this conversation that no one else has is reasoning behind why there are two opposing opinions. I believe that these differing opinions stem from a different viewpoint, mostly. The funny thing is, I can see merit in both viewpoints, but believe they are both not completely or adequately informed. Firstly, what we do here (collecting various ethnographic artifacts), from our point of view, comes out of respect for these cultures and demonstrates a keen interest on learning more about them. there's nothing at all nefarious in that. Our goal is knowledge and our methods imply respect. If we did not hold onto these pieces of history, they would be lost on someone who did not appreciate their cultural or historical significance, or maybe worse; they may be taken care of poorly and yet another artifacts will be lost to the ravages of time However, from the other standpoint, many believe that because there are so many pieces displayed in foreign lands or even in personal collections that it is an implied disrespect to the culture. To have something ripped away from your land during war only to be displayed as a trophy, a symbol of conquest rather than pride. Why not repatriate it to an appropriate museum in its homeland? Why hoard these material things? Why accumulate and accumulate and accumulate so ravenously? Of course, both of these arguments are very one-domensional and therein lay the problem. A lack of understanding where one or the other comes from can lead to a somewhat skewed and unrealistic perception. That is why I really appreciate this discussion. We can definitely expand our ways of thinking to include both viewpoints rather than exclude one, and in doing so we can work to understand one another's viewpoints more clearly -- and maybe even change these viewpoints for the better. After all, isn't that level of understanding and intercultural knowledge the essence of what we're all here for? I think so. And for this I am thankful for this discussion, Nathaniel. Great thread.

14th October 2010, 06:22 PM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Great points Pepperskull.... lack of understanding is the root of many conflicts... Like they say any good relationship needs good communication!