Weighing in...collecting from other cultures...

imas560 · 12th October 2010, 02:06 AM

Interesting subject,
how much should a person know before embarking on collecting from another culture? I think I stepped on some toes last year when I was in Kuala Kangsar wanting a keris repaired and wanting to get some items made. I may have inadvertently caused offence by my lack of knowledge of what was allowable on a keris. I had posted on a couple of forums (unfortunately not this one) and thought I had gathered enough information to think I was ok in requesting a dragon head on a custom made keris. But when I described what I wanted I got a very distinct vibe of causing offence. In the end I requested a keris without the dragon head and some other items including a Pedang that was to have a dragon head hilt. It's been over a year and still no word on the items being made or the keris being repaired. I have a niggling feeling that I'm not going to see the items or the deposit and that the keris may be "lost".
In regards to an item being classified as old and not being allowed out of the country I believe in New Zealand (where I live) any indigenous artifacts over 50 years old are not allowed to be sold for export. I may be wrong but I will try and hunt out the info.
BTW the keris for repair was bought at auction in NZ and I transported it back to Malaysia to be repaired. I thought I would treat it reverently and get it repaired in it's homeland.

Neil · 12th October 2010, 02:28 AM

That is an interesting line of questioning Nathanial. For me, a weapon is not a sacred object and can in that light be fair game to collect, appreciate, and study by those in an outsider group. Although some weapons may be of major historic significance warranting some measure of government regulations to at least keep them in the country of their origin. Personally, I think in the end it is up to conscientious individuals inside and out to preserve and pass on the knowledge and stories that these things represent.

Nathaniel · 12th October 2010, 04:39 AM

Thanks guys for sharing your thoughts

I agree, we are only temporary custodians and regardless of our origin it is most respectful to help learn from each other, preserve and pass this on to future generations regardless of age, race, color or creed.

Very few of us are 100% anything I might add...scratch below the surface and you see all of our family roots are mix of tribes/ countries/denominations & religions that make in who we are today...so to come out with xenophobic/ xenocentric attitude is not much more than a farce.

It is interesting how attitudes change with time...I have been told from more than one source that there is a Thai belief that swords and even pictures of swords could bring conflict and disharmony to a home if displayed within so that explains some of why perhaps until recently they haven’t been valued by many folks…but this is changing as superstitions become less ‘believed’.

With regards to your comment that a weapon is not sacred, I would follow by saying that to a certain extend it maybe in other cultures. A weapon can be seen as both a item to protect oneself and ones family therefore giving a weapon a potential sacred status. As well life being viewed as sacred, something which can take a life may also be sacred. We see many weapons which have talisman that are not merely decorative but serve to protect the owner...this applies to both sacrificial knives, axes and other tools as well as weapons of warfare.

Just to throw out an example here is some pictures of K.Bancha off KRM of a sword blessing ceremony...

Philip reminded me though in Chinese culture it was old custom for a jian to be above the head of newborn crib...and later this evolved into a jian made of coins

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2583

This being said...I thought I would add a little humor in saying all animals are sacred too...Cows are sacred in the Hindu religion...and last week I saw a posting that in honor of St. Francis of Assisi, the local Christian church was going to have a blessing of the animals....I didn't go...but I was told people brought their pets...including a bunny rabbit...bird, cat & dog...so all animals must be sacred too

KuKulzA28 · 12th October 2010, 05:58 AM

Should the oldest Ak-47s and M16s be sent back to Russia and the USA? We may have to ask ourselves that question in a few decades. What of composite pieces? An Indonesian piece with a Chinese or Indian imported blade with European stylistic influences on the guard? What about a musket from the late 1700s found in colonial North America? Does it belong to the Dutch, French, or the English or does it belong to the USA? What about a club or arrowheads belonging to the Massachuset Tribe which was largely killed off and has a few descendants left?

Weapons are force multipliers. They maximize the damage of a thrust, cut, smash... or project objects that pierce the opponent's body. They are just tools to make us humans deadlier. By themselves, their value is only when one needs to injure or kill another. But the idea of value, a person's sense of value with regards to a weapon, a family's, a culture's, a country's, etc. is different. Culture and history become tied with an object used to make killing more efficient. Weapons often reflect this in their style, decorations, materials, logos, colors, etc.

In the end some are sold because they are no longer valued. Some were seized by conquerers because they are valuable to the original owners. And some are sold because of cultural taboo or poverty...

I say it depends on an individual basis, if you can trace the origin of a piece... but in the end if the piece is better off with you than back with its people (for whatever reason), maybe you ought to keep it. Truly understanding everything about a weapon involves historical, cultural, and hoplological knowledge... a major journey.

Often you cannot trace the origin of a weapon however (in terms of how it went from a prized weapon to being sold on the market).

Even if you could and see that perhaps the descendants of its owner would probably like it back in their lineage... you did buy it with your hard earned money. A sweat-shop worker might like the clothes he/she is making but cannot have, and while you may feel bad and want to give him or her your nice clothes... you did work to earn the money to pay for those clothes which you now wear.

VANDOO · 12th October 2010, 05:59 AM

MANS HISTORY HAS ALWAYS LED TO ENCOUNTERES BETWEEN DIFFERENT CULTURES. OFTEN THIS CAUSES DRASTIC CHANGES IN ONE OR BOTH CULTURES. IN MANY OCEANIC CULTURES THE STEEL WEAPON AND GUN REPLACED CLUBS AND SPEARS AND MISSONARIES TAUGHT AGAINST THE OLD WAYS AND WEAPONS AND RITUALS WERE LOST. WHO KNOWS HOW MANY OLD WAR CLUBS, SPEARS AND SUCH EITHER ROTTED IN A SHED OR BURNED OR WERE THROWN ON THE GARBAGE HEAP.

I THINK THE MOVEMENT OF THESE OBJECTS BETWEEN CULTURES AND COUNTRIES ENRICHES AND ENCOURAGES INTREST AND LEARNING. ITS KIND OF A TYPE OF CROSS POLLINATION OF CULTURES AND BELIEFS.
SO I VOTE THAT OFTEN THESE PEOPLE WHO CARRIED OFF ARTEFACTS AND CARED FOR THEM OR DONATED THEM TO MUSEUMS, DID GOOD AS THEY PRESERVED THINGS THAT WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE BEEN LOST. THOSE WHO STUDIED AND WROTE DOWN THE CUSTOMS OF THE PEOPLE AS WELL AS COLLECTED ARTEFACTS AND DREW SKETCHES WERE THE MOST VALUABLE AS OTHERWISE ALL MAY HAVE BEEN LOST AS THE CULTURE CHANGED OVER TIME. PEOPLE HAVE A WAY OF WANTING THE NEW AND DISCARDING THE OLD IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT. AT LEAST THAT WAS THE WAY OF IT WHEN I GREW UP. I GUESS THE WORD ANTIQUE HAD NOT BEEN IN WIDE USE TO ENABLE SELLERS TO SELL OLD USED STUFF.

IF I REMEMBER THE STORY CORRECTLY THE ACROPOLIS WAS OCCUPIED BY AN INVADING ARMY WHO WAS TEARING IT UP AND USING THE FIGURES FOR TARGET PRACTICE. THE ENGLISHMAN GOT PERMISSION AND NO DOUBT PAYED TO TAKE SOME OF THE BEST CARVINGS. WHICH WERE SUBSEQUENTLY LOST AT SEA. WOULD ALL THE MARBLES BEEN BLASTED TO BITS LIKE THE SPHINX LOST ITS NOSE IN EGYPT IF HE HAD NOT TAKEN THEM??? WHO KNOWS!! BUT THEY HAVE SURVIVED WHO GETS THEM NOW IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE FACT THAT THEY STILL EXHIST.
I THINK ITS BETTER TO HAVE ITEMS FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES SPREAD OVER THE WORLD THAN FOR ALL ARTEFACTS TO STAY ONLY IN THE COUNTRY OR TRIBE FOREVER. THERE IS MUCH TO BE LEARNED FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND OFTEN SOMEONE FROM OUTSIDE THE CULTURE CAN DO VALUABLE WORK THAT THE CULTURE MAY NOT DO ITSELF. IF AN ITEM IS STOLEN OR LOOTED THEN IT SHOULD BE RETURNED BUT IF IT IS SOLD BY ITS OWNER TO HELP HIS FAMILY THATS OK.
IN WAR WARRIORS HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN THE DISCARDED WEAPONS AND SOUVINEERS FROM THOSE WHO HAVE FLED OR WERE VANQUISHED, ITS TRADITION. WAR IS NOT A GOOD THING BUT WILL MOST LIKELY ALWAYS BE A CURSE ON ALL MANKIND. THE RULES OF WAR HAVE CHANGED A LITTLE THE PURPOSE IS NO LONGER TO COLLECT HEADS, SCALPS, SLAVES OR BODIES FOR A FEAST. TODAY THEY ARE FOUGHT OVER WEALTH, FOOD, LAND AND OLD TRADITIONAL FUEDS OFTEN GOING BACK FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. SOME FIGHT TO SURVIVE AND SOME MAKE WAR TO ENFORCE THEIR BELIEFS OR CONQUER AND ENSLAVE AND LOOT THEIR NEGHBORS.
THE LITTLE WE DO IN COLLECTING, PRESERVING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE ITEMS AND THE CULTURES AND THE HISTORY. DOES MUCH MORE GOOD THAN HARM THOUGH FEW WILL APPRECIATE WHY WE DO IT AND MANY FIND US CRAZY NO DOUBT.

KuKulzA28 · 12th October 2010, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

[.....] THE LITTLE WE DO IN COLLECTING, PRESERVING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE ITEMS AND THE CULTURES AND THE HISTORY. DOES MUCH MORE GOOD THAN HARM THOUGH FEW WILL APPRECIATE WHY WE DO IT AND MANY FIND US CRAZY NO DOUBT.

I say in general that is true, good point.

Rescuing an endangered species with the intention of preserving the genetic integrity of the species and possibly re-introducing it into the wild... is kind of like preserving a collection of old weapons that may someday regain or gain more recognition as a valuable part of a people's history and culture. Obviously conditions weren't right or the animal wouldn't be on the verge of extinction... obviously conditions aren't right or these weapons probably wouldn't have ended up in your collection!

Weapon collectors are sometimes said to be crazy. Why I don't know?

laEspadaAncha · 12th October 2010, 08:35 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

I have voiced my opinion on this before, and am happy to share it again.

The need to repatriate objects of cultural importance to their "homeland" is a relatively recent invention, spurned by the push for nationalism and nationalist retentionism by political entities. Why does a Roman antiquity found in Tunisia belong to Italy? Not only was there no nation-state of Italy in existence 2,000 years ago, but is that object not a part of the Tunisian cultural identity? The same can be said of edged weapons from the modern day incarnations of the Philippines or Indonesia, which through trade and migration invariably found their way from island to island, long before these current national identities ever existed.

Furthermore, there are considerations regarding how an item came into the possession of someone halfway around the world from its culture of origin. This aspect of the discussion came to light regarding several Moro weapons I am in possession of that formerly belonged to a Brigadier General who earlier in his career played an important role in the Moro Insurrection - both as a warrior and a diplomat, even at one time serving as an analog to the "best man" at a wedding between one datu and the daughter of another.

This recent "nationalist retentionist" push limits access to objects that are as much a tribute to makind's culture as they are to that of any contemporary political identity. This, in turn, limits the opportunity to learn more about the incredible journey we as a race have all taken to this point, a tale more aptly told to much wider audiences by regional encyclopedic museums. I don't know when I will make it to Cairo. But the San Diego Museum of Man has an impressive permanent ancient Egypt exhibit that has educated countless individuals like myself who may otherwise never have the chance to visit these artifacts if they were to be found only in Africa.

Lastly, with regards to the value of private collections, what you see in a museum gallery represents an insignificantly small percentage of a museum's collection, the rest of which remains stored underneath in the vaults, far from the view of the public's eye. It is us, the community of private collectors, who stoke the fire of interest, and (albeit on a much smaller scale) provide what an object stored in the far corner of a museum vault cannot - an opportunity to enlighten someone about a culture that represents a small part of the tapestry of mankind and the journey we have all taken together.

fearn · 12th October 2010, 03:42 PM

I'd also add in the CITES argument to this mix (link to CITES thread).

This is an added layer of complexity. Many weapons have ivory, tiger parts, turtle shell, rhino horn and other material from endangered species. Unless you have a provenanced item that pre-dates the CITES ban on that species, you can't move that item out of its homeland. Antiques are exempt from the ban (within the limits of the link above, and they aren't small).

So there is an irony here. When something becomes valuable as an antique, it may also be more able to travel beyond its homeland.

Personally, I'd say that if you're worried about this, you better be worrying about properly curating your collection with the best available techniques. That way, your collections will live on after you pass, and if the descendants of the original owners want them back, they will still be around to go back.

Best,

F

Nathaniel · 12th October 2010, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imas560

Interesting subject,
how much should a person know before embarking on collecting from another culture? I think I stepped on some toes last year when I was in Kuala Kangsar wanting a keris repaired and wanting to get some items made. I may have inadvertently caused offence by my lack of knowledge of what was allowable on a keris. I had posted on a couple of forums (unfortunately not this one) and thought I had gathered enough information to think I was ok in requesting a dragon head on a custom made keris. But when I described what I wanted I got a very distinct vibe of causing offence. In the end I requested a keris without the dragon head and some other items including a Pedang that was to have a dragon head hilt. It's been over a year and still no word on the items being made or the keris being repaired. I have a niggling feeling that I'm not going to see the items or the deposit and that the keris may be "lost".
In regards to an item being classified as old and not being allowed out of the country I believe in New Zealand (where I live) any indigenous artifacts over 50 years old are not allowed to be sold for export. I may be wrong but I will try and hunt out the info.
BTW the keris for repair was bought at auction in NZ and I transported it back to Malaysia to be repaired. I thought I would treat it reverently and get it repaired in it's homeland.

Wow, not cool....thanks for sharing...That is a challenge to find a skilled and honest craftsman...I know I've contemplated having things restored in other countries...

It can definitely be very challenging to do research in a native culture....even if you speak the language....I know some of my friend they are Chinese but born in the USA...when they go back to China if his parents are trying to bargain for something, he is to keep his mouth shut...because even though he speaks fluent Chinese the sellers would pick up his accent.

kahnjar1 · 12th October 2010, 02:33 AM

Good to know there is another member (apart from Illiad) residing in NZ.
The subject raised by Nathaniel has been discussed here in part in previous posts, and is (or can be) a touchy subject especially where native races are involved. This all began in a large way during the "colonial" era, when mainly european powers were grabbing as much of the world as they could in as short a time as possible, and raped and pillaged antiquities at the same time.
In the case of NZ it is the Maori who are repatriating as much of their tribal heritage as possible, and I agree with this.
However the term "cultural" also relates to the ordinary, and for the most part common items, of ANY particular ethnic race. Hence it also should apply to such things as English and other antique weapons as much as to items of other origins. Are we about to send all these back to their countries of origin? I don't think so!!
IF an item is of particular HISTORICAL or TRIBAL interest then that is a different matter. Most of us collect "mainstream" items, and are probably not lucky enough or rich enough to own really important pieces.
Regards Stuart

Lew · 12th October 2010, 02:37 AM

Well I do Not agree with the argument that some of these old weapons belong back in their native countries. Some areas in Africa where there is civil,political and economic unrest these weapons would probably be melted down for scrap.
We collectors are only temporary custodians of these items and in a way we insure that they will be around for future generations to enjoy. Hopefully one day some of these pieces will find their way back to their country of origin.

12th October 2010, 04:39 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thanks guys for sharing your thoughts I agree, we are only temporary custodians and regardless of our origin it is most respectful to help learn from each other, preserve and pass this on to future generations regardless of age, race, color or creed. Very few of us are 100% anything I might add...scratch below the surface and you see all of our family roots are mix of tribes/ countries/denominations & religions that make in who we are today...so to come out with xenophobic/ xenocentric attitude is not much more than a farce. It is interesting how attitudes change with time...I have been told from more than one source that there is a Thai belief that swords and even pictures of swords could bring conflict and disharmony to a home if displayed within so that explains some of why perhaps until recently they haven’t been valued by many folks…but this is changing as superstitions become less ‘believed’. With regards to your comment that a weapon is not sacred, I would follow by saying that to a certain extend it maybe in other cultures. A weapon can be seen as both a item to protect oneself and ones family therefore giving a weapon a potential sacred status. As well life being viewed as sacred, something which can take a life may also be sacred. We see many weapons which have talisman that are not merely decorative but serve to protect the owner...this applies to both sacrificial knives, axes and other tools as well as weapons of warfare. Just to throw out an example here is some pictures of K.Bancha off KRM of a sword blessing ceremony... Philip reminded me though in Chinese culture it was old custom for a jian to be above the head of newborn crib...and later this evolved into a jian made of coins http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2583 This being said...I thought I would add a little humor in saying all animals are sacred too...Cows are sacred in the Hindu religion...and last week I saw a posting that in honor of St. Francis of Assisi, the local Christian church was going to have a blessing of the animals....I didn't go...but I was told people brought their pets...including a bunny rabbit...bird, cat & dog...so all animals must be sacred too Last edited by Nathaniel; 12th October 2010 at 01:49 PM.

12th October 2010, 02:06 AM	#1
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Interesting subject, how much should a person know before embarking on collecting from another culture? I think I stepped on some toes last year when I was in Kuala Kangsar wanting a keris repaired and wanting to get some items made. I may have inadvertently caused offence by my lack of knowledge of what was allowable on a keris. I had posted on a couple of forums (unfortunately not this one) and thought I had gathered enough information to think I was ok in requesting a dragon head on a custom made keris. But when I described what I wanted I got a very distinct vibe of causing offence. In the end I requested a keris without the dragon head and some other items including a Pedang that was to have a dragon head hilt. It's been over a year and still no word on the items being made or the keris being repaired. I have a niggling feeling that I'm not going to see the items or the deposit and that the keris may be "lost". In regards to an item being classified as old and not being allowed out of the country I believe in New Zealand (where I live) any indigenous artifacts over 50 years old are not allowed to be sold for export. I may be wrong but I will try and hunt out the info. BTW the keris for repair was bought at auction in NZ and I transported it back to Malaysia to be repaired. I thought I would treat it reverently and get it repaired in it's homeland.

12th October 2010, 02:28 AM	#2
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	That is an interesting line of questioning Nathanial. For me, a weapon is not a sacred object and can in that light be fair game to collect, appreciate, and study by those in an outsider group. Although some weapons may be of major historic significance warranting some measure of government regulations to at least keep them in the country of their origin. Personally, I think in the end it is up to conscientious individuals inside and out to preserve and pass on the knowledge and stories that these things represent.

12th October 2010, 05:58 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Should the oldest Ak-47s and M16s be sent back to Russia and the USA? We may have to ask ourselves that question in a few decades. What of composite pieces? An Indonesian piece with a Chinese or Indian imported blade with European stylistic influences on the guard? What about a musket from the late 1700s found in colonial North America? Does it belong to the Dutch, French, or the English or does it belong to the USA? What about a club or arrowheads belonging to the Massachuset Tribe which was largely killed off and has a few descendants left? Weapons are force multipliers. They maximize the damage of a thrust, cut, smash... or project objects that pierce the opponent's body. They are just tools to make us humans deadlier. By themselves, their value is only when one needs to injure or kill another. But the idea of value, a person's sense of value with regards to a weapon, a family's, a culture's, a country's, etc. is different. Culture and history become tied with an object used to make killing more efficient. Weapons often reflect this in their style, decorations, materials, logos, colors, etc. In the end some are sold because they are no longer valued. Some were seized by conquerers because they are valuable to the original owners. And some are sold because of cultural taboo or poverty... I say it depends on an individual basis, if you can trace the origin of a piece... but in the end if the piece is better off with you than back with its people (for whatever reason), maybe you ought to keep it. Truly understanding everything about a weapon involves historical, cultural, and hoplological knowledge... a major journey. Often you cannot trace the origin of a weapon however (in terms of how it went from a prized weapon to being sold on the market). Even if you could and see that perhaps the descendants of its owner would probably like it back in their lineage... you did buy it with your hard earned money. A sweat-shop worker might like the clothes he/she is making but cannot have, and while you may feel bad and want to give him or her your nice clothes... you did work to earn the money to pay for those clothes which you now wear.

12th October 2010, 05:59 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MANS HISTORY HAS ALWAYS LED TO ENCOUNTERES BETWEEN DIFFERENT CULTURES. OFTEN THIS CAUSES DRASTIC CHANGES IN ONE OR BOTH CULTURES. IN MANY OCEANIC CULTURES THE STEEL WEAPON AND GUN REPLACED CLUBS AND SPEARS AND MISSONARIES TAUGHT AGAINST THE OLD WAYS AND WEAPONS AND RITUALS WERE LOST. WHO KNOWS HOW MANY OLD WAR CLUBS, SPEARS AND SUCH EITHER ROTTED IN A SHED OR BURNED OR WERE THROWN ON THE GARBAGE HEAP. I THINK THE MOVEMENT OF THESE OBJECTS BETWEEN CULTURES AND COUNTRIES ENRICHES AND ENCOURAGES INTREST AND LEARNING. ITS KIND OF A TYPE OF CROSS POLLINATION OF CULTURES AND BELIEFS. SO I VOTE THAT OFTEN THESE PEOPLE WHO CARRIED OFF ARTEFACTS AND CARED FOR THEM OR DONATED THEM TO MUSEUMS, DID GOOD AS THEY PRESERVED THINGS THAT WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE BEEN LOST. THOSE WHO STUDIED AND WROTE DOWN THE CUSTOMS OF THE PEOPLE AS WELL AS COLLECTED ARTEFACTS AND DREW SKETCHES WERE THE MOST VALUABLE AS OTHERWISE ALL MAY HAVE BEEN LOST AS THE CULTURE CHANGED OVER TIME. PEOPLE HAVE A WAY OF WANTING THE NEW AND DISCARDING THE OLD IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT. AT LEAST THAT WAS THE WAY OF IT WHEN I GREW UP. I GUESS THE WORD ANTIQUE HAD NOT BEEN IN WIDE USE TO ENABLE SELLERS TO SELL OLD USED STUFF. IF I REMEMBER THE STORY CORRECTLY THE ACROPOLIS WAS OCCUPIED BY AN INVADING ARMY WHO WAS TEARING IT UP AND USING THE FIGURES FOR TARGET PRACTICE. THE ENGLISHMAN GOT PERMISSION AND NO DOUBT PAYED TO TAKE SOME OF THE BEST CARVINGS. WHICH WERE SUBSEQUENTLY LOST AT SEA. WOULD ALL THE MARBLES BEEN BLASTED TO BITS LIKE THE SPHINX LOST ITS NOSE IN EGYPT IF HE HAD NOT TAKEN THEM??? WHO KNOWS!! BUT THEY HAVE SURVIVED WHO GETS THEM NOW IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE FACT THAT THEY STILL EXHIST. I THINK ITS BETTER TO HAVE ITEMS FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES SPREAD OVER THE WORLD THAN FOR ALL ARTEFACTS TO STAY ONLY IN THE COUNTRY OR TRIBE FOREVER. THERE IS MUCH TO BE LEARNED FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES AND OFTEN SOMEONE FROM OUTSIDE THE CULTURE CAN DO VALUABLE WORK THAT THE CULTURE MAY NOT DO ITSELF. IF AN ITEM IS STOLEN OR LOOTED THEN IT SHOULD BE RETURNED BUT IF IT IS SOLD BY ITS OWNER TO HELP HIS FAMILY THATS OK. IN WAR WARRIORS HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN THE DISCARDED WEAPONS AND SOUVINEERS FROM THOSE WHO HAVE FLED OR WERE VANQUISHED, ITS TRADITION. WAR IS NOT A GOOD THING BUT WILL MOST LIKELY ALWAYS BE A CURSE ON ALL MANKIND. THE RULES OF WAR HAVE CHANGED A LITTLE THE PURPOSE IS NO LONGER TO COLLECT HEADS, SCALPS, SLAVES OR BODIES FOR A FEAST. TODAY THEY ARE FOUGHT OVER WEALTH, FOOD, LAND AND OLD TRADITIONAL FUEDS OFTEN GOING BACK FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. SOME FIGHT TO SURVIVE AND SOME MAKE WAR TO ENFORCE THEIR BELIEFS OR CONQUER AND ENSLAVE AND LOOT THEIR NEGHBORS. THE LITTLE WE DO IN COLLECTING, PRESERVING AND LEARNING ABOUT THE ITEMS AND THE CULTURES AND THE HISTORY. DOES MUCH MORE GOOD THAN HARM THOUGH FEW WILL APPRECIATE WHY WE DO IT AND MANY FIND US CRAZY NO DOUBT.

12th October 2010, 08:35 AM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, I have voiced my opinion on this before, and am happy to share it again. The need to repatriate objects of cultural importance to their "homeland" is a relatively recent invention, spurned by the push for nationalism and nationalist retentionism by political entities. Why does a Roman antiquity found in Tunisia belong to Italy? Not only was there no nation-state of Italy in existence 2,000 years ago, but is that object not a part of the Tunisian cultural identity? The same can be said of edged weapons from the modern day incarnations of the Philippines or Indonesia, which through trade and migration invariably found their way from island to island, long before these current national identities ever existed. Furthermore, there are considerations regarding how an item came into the possession of someone halfway around the world from its culture of origin. This aspect of the discussion came to light regarding several Moro weapons I am in possession of that formerly belonged to a Brigadier General who earlier in his career played an important role in the Moro Insurrection - both as a warrior and a diplomat, even at one time serving as an analog to the "best man" at a wedding between one datu and the daughter of another. This recent "nationalist retentionist" push limits access to objects that are as much a tribute to makind's culture as they are to that of any contemporary political identity. This, in turn, limits the opportunity to learn more about the incredible journey we as a race have all taken to this point, a tale more aptly told to much wider audiences by regional encyclopedic museums. I don't know when I will make it to Cairo. But the San Diego Museum of Man has an impressive permanent ancient Egypt exhibit that has educated countless individuals like myself who may otherwise never have the chance to visit these artifacts if they were to be found only in Africa. Lastly, with regards to the value of private collections, what you see in a museum gallery represents an insignificantly small percentage of a museum's collection, the rest of which remains stored underneath in the vaults, far from the view of the public's eye. It is us, the community of private collectors, who stoke the fire of interest, and (albeit on a much smaller scale) provide what an object stored in the far corner of a museum vault cannot - an opportunity to enlighten someone about a culture that represents a small part of the tapestry of mankind and the journey we have all taken together.

12th October 2010, 03:42 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd also add in the CITES argument to this mix (link to CITES thread). This is an added layer of complexity. Many weapons have ivory, tiger parts, turtle shell, rhino horn and other material from endangered species. Unless you have a provenanced item that pre-dates the CITES ban on that species, you can't move that item out of its homeland. Antiques are exempt from the ban (within the limits of the link above, and they aren't small). So there is an irony here. When something becomes valuable as an antique, it may also be more able to travel beyond its homeland. Personally, I'd say that if you're worried about this, you better be worrying about properly curating your collection with the best available techniques. That way, your collections will live on after you pass, and if the descendants of the original owners want them back, they will still be around to go back. Best, F

12th October 2010, 02:33 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Good to know there is another member (apart from Illiad) residing in NZ. The subject raised by Nathaniel has been discussed here in part in previous posts, and is (or can be) a touchy subject especially where native races are involved. This all began in a large way during the "colonial" era, when mainly european powers were grabbing as much of the world as they could in as short a time as possible, and raped and pillaged antiquities at the same time. In the case of NZ it is the Maori who are repatriating as much of their tribal heritage as possible, and I agree with this. However the term "cultural" also relates to the ordinary, and for the most part common items, of ANY particular ethnic race. Hence it also should apply to such things as English and other antique weapons as much as to items of other origins. Are we about to send all these back to their countries of origin? I don't think so!! IF an item is of particular HISTORICAL or TRIBAL interest then that is a different matter. Most of us collect "mainstream" items, and are probably not lucky enough or rich enough to own really important pieces. Regards Stuart

12th October 2010, 02:37 AM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well I do Not agree with the argument that some of these old weapons belong back in their native countries. Some areas in Africa where there is civil,political and economic unrest these weapons would probably be melted down for scrap. We collectors are only temporary custodians of these items and in a way we insure that they will be around for future generations to enjoy. Hopefully one day some of these pieces will find their way back to their country of origin.